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#4313163 - 11/18/16 12:32 PM Open Hardware Joystick  
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Does anyone know of, or would anyone be interested in contributing to, an open hardware spec for a USB joystick?
I see there is already a discussion about Open Source Joystick FFB / DIY FFB Joystick[/u] but I am after information about just a regular joystick.

I'm currently working on designing a sim-pit for flying gliders and am less than impressed with the current selection of joysticks available to use as a control stick. I see there are a few good cyclic controls for helicopter sims that would no doubt work but these are very expensive and would only be an approximation of what I'm after, so I'm considering building my own.

I have spent a considerable amount of time looking for resources to use to build my own joystick but so far haven't really been able to find what I'm after. Currently I am trying to find a CAD model of a gimbal setup that I may be able to use and it was VO101MMaister's excellent design in [u]this thread that has drawn me to this forum:
[Linked Image]

Another thread I've found useful has been Cataclysm72's thread DIY Controller and Throttle in the "Elite: Dangerious" forum however, even though it's meant to be a DIY thread he stops short of actually making the plans available�though he has uploaded an early prototype of his design to ThingiVerse: Simplicatron Joystick and Throttle mechanics[/u]
[Linked Image]


A third resource I have been pulling design inspiration from is the curious product known as a [u]heli-chair:
[Linked Image]

Of these three design inspirations the heli-chair is the easiest to comprehend (and can probably be made with just an angle grinder and welder), Cataclysm72's has the most information available, however VO101MMaister's design is by far the best.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/28/17 04:08 AM.
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#4313172 - 11/18/16 01:00 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Quote:
even though it's meant to be a DIY thread he stops short of actually making the plans available


I just shared my thoughts and my concepts, DIY simply means that I did everything myself, it was never meant as a detailed instructional build, so don't spread talks like this about me. This design (and my updated spring return) took almost 2 years of my spare time, and here you accuse me of 'not sharing the designs'.

We've spoken about this on the Elite forums and private messages, you'll have to put in some hard work yourself.

#4313201 - 11/18/16 02:50 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Take a look at Russian forums, are there that the "Next Generation" gimbals born with use of CAM for center.

CAM is good compromise for achieve "soft but tactile" center, and can be easily customisable exchanging CAM profile, springs...

For use contactless sensors use bearings in axis is mandatory, since minimal axial play in axis movement is detected.

Since the "place" - Sukhoi forum - are now dead, start at Avia-sim:

General: http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=28
BAUR devices: http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=34
About CAM design: http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=646
http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=800


http://hotas.su/

The manufacturer method used seems the more accessible for DIY, as avoid use of CNC, solder machines... the parts is laser cut in steel, a service more affordable than CNC.

Interesting alternative, use Servocity CNC parts:

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2016/10/full-40208-128117-dsc02627.jpg
http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2016/10/full-40208-128113-dsc02621.jpg














#4313367 - 11/19/16 06:49 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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After a bit more searching I've happened across this very informative playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMCk5j63dAI&list=PLC66292176B625E2A


It's by a guy called Travis Howse who operates the OpenJoystick.org service. Travis Howse has kindly also released his project on GitHub: https://github.com/tjhowse/OpenJoystick

I'm still looking into the details but it looks like a promising lead smile

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 11/20/16 07:42 AM.
#4313587 - 11/20/16 03:13 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Oops - deleted
(accidental double post)

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 11/20/16 03:16 AM.
#4313593 - 11/20/16 04:17 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: robv]  
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Originally Posted By: robv
Quote:
even though it's meant to be a DIY thread he stops short of actually making the plans available


I just shared my thoughts and my concepts, DIY simply means that I did everything myself, it was never meant as a detailed instructional build, so don't spread talks like this about me. This design (and my updated spring return) took almost 2 years of my spare time, and here you accuse me of 'not sharing the designs'.

We've spoken about this on the Elite forums and private messages, you'll have to put in some hard work yourself.

Rob, I am not "spreading talk" about you or "accusing" you of anything. It is true that you have an excellent DIY thread in the other forum (which I have linked to as I think it is, well, excellent) and it is also true that you are not willing to make instructions available or discuss details about the design, and that's your own prerogative. I'm not actually being critical about that here.

What I am trying to do is have a discussion about designing a joystick and making the information available such that people are able to build it themselves. If you don't want to contribute to such a project that is perfectly fine but don't take it as a personal slight. If however you were willing to contribute I would be delighted and your input would of course be most welcomed.


Keep the peace brother,
And I love your work,
Slarti.

#4313613 - 11/20/16 07:32 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: Sokol1]  
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Originally Posted By: Sokol1
Take a look at Russian forums, are there that the "Next Generation" gimbals born with use of CAM for center.
...

Thanks for the links Sokol1.
I seem to keep coming across Russian threads in this project for some reason but unfortunately it all ends up sounding like gobbledygook to me, even using GoogleTranslate. With translation turned on you can kind of get an idea of what you think is being discussed but you keep coming across translations like:
Quote:
...
5. Baur makes steel 2mm (3mm under bearings), what do you think of duralumin is much sad? Although that fact that that I do not.
...

Which I think means he is using material that is 2mm thick for the most part but uses 3mm material for parts that hold bearings however such material is not available in aluminium—but who knows, I could well be way off track. It's all a bit of a crap-shoot at this end of the translator I'm afraid wink

The Servocity images you post look very encouraging though:




Are these images from another thread at all, and are there any tools one can use to workout how to construct things?

I appreciate the idea is to no doubt physically 'play' with the pieces and fit them together like lego bricks but if I'm going down the Servocity road I'd like to be able to roughly know what I need before ordering the parts. Are there any resources I could use to try and determine exactly which parts I might need?


Thanks,
Slarti.

#4313619 - 11/20/16 09:28 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Slarti, PM me your email address and i'll send you a bag of pictures i scaped from the net while doing my research, including some early gimbal excercises from me. I have no energy to put them all in imgur etc (being sick, recovering from cancer et), but i'm sure you know what to do with it. I very much support your project i wish i had the energy to go full out.

Perhaps i'm just an old fashioned guy who can't get used to opensourcing everything please don't take it personal.

#4313780 - 11/20/16 11:01 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Glider pilot simdork here (I'm Sisu1a on the Condor forum :))... if you are making a sailplane gimbals, the pitch axis should be about 50mm longer than roll.


The centering mechanism is what defines the kinematics for the most part. Listen to Sokel1, he is pointing you the right direction for this. Most other methods of centering are rather unsatisfying...

I have a design for a FF sailplane stick that I've not pursued in a long time, but if Condor 2 ever rears its head I'll actually make it, or at least follow Roland van Roy's MSFFII hack since it works so well in that sim and has a great library of effects to draw from.

I also have a design for a static centering gimbals, that copies the trim mechanism from my SZD-59, which uses a long torsion spring acting on the stick in pitch, which you can adjust by setting it in one of several notches fore/aft along a plate adjacent to the stick, though it kind of digs into your thighs the trimmable speed range with it is from stall to a speed higher than I'm comfortable letting the plane fly itself at.

I've spent some time measuring various ships and the stick in it is pretty typical of a high performance sailpalnes, with 25cm in roll and 30 in pitch, from axes to trip of grip. I think it moves +/- 17deg in roll and +10/-25 in pitch but I'd have to look again.

Here's some rudder pedals I made from cheap $20 Aeronca Chief pedals off ebay and some scrap metal/pushrods... it still says my Logitech Attack III is ready when I plug them in :p


ps. a Schwinn 205p is a great recumbent exercise bike to convert into a semi-supine cockpit I gather you want to build http://imgur.com/a/UBiV6

Last edited by LocNar; 11/20/16 11:02 PM.
#4313856 - 11/21/16 06:44 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: robv]  
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Originally Posted By: robv
Slarti, PM me your email address and i'll send you a bag of pictures i scaped from the net while doing my research...

Wonderful, thanks Rob.
And I'm really pleased to see you onboard smile

For those playing at home you can find the files Rob sent me here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7nsurursidjxygn/AABgv2zMvt7sAR6MCktBItkFa?dl=0
Originally Posted By: robv
Perhaps i'm just an old fashioned guy who can't get used to opensourcing everything please don't take it personal.

No offence taken Rob.

I can appreciate how strange it can seem to simply give away completely for free what has taken years of heartache and tears to produce but that is pretty much how the open software/hardware movement works. Personally I think it's amazing that the movement exists at all, but I love it. If you had of told me 20 years ago that there would be 1000's of highly trained and professional people all over the world working in their spare time for years to produce software with the explicit intention of giving it all away for free, I would have said you were crazy, but sometimes the world can be stranger than fiction wink

In many ways the whole of the Internet can be considered a remarkable experiment in anarchy in that there is no governing body that orchestrates how things are to be conducted (especially in the beginning) and the only reason it works at all is because all those using it essentially just agree to communicate with each other in an agreeable manner. There's no real reason the Internet is as great as it is, or even that it even exists in the first place, it just happens to be here because there were enough people interested to communicate with each other and enough others to create content, and it was seen the content was good so here we all are today. The whole thing is astounding really if ever you stop to think about it. Anyway, the Open Software/Hardware movements are just a part of all that, and I love it!

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 11/21/16 09:18 AM.
#4313871 - 11/21/16 09:17 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: LocNar]  
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Originally Posted by LocNar
Glider pilot simdork here (I'm Sisu1a on the Condor forum :))

Hello, LocNar.
I've actually come across your pedals on the Condor forum before and must say they look most authentic. When I get to making the pedals I was thinking to hit you up for details wink

I have also started a thread on the Condor forum about the build but it hasn't received much love.


Originally Posted by LocNar
if you are making a sailplane gimbals, the pitch axis should be about 50mm longer than roll.

Interesting, thanks. I would never have realised that.

In regard to gliders in particular do you know at all what the dimensions of a typical control column are?
Going by this image:
[Linked Image]

It appears the stick is swept back 120mm and about 240mm tall, which is smaller than I would have guessed but does that seem about right to you? I've done a lot of searching and ask in several forums but those above are the only dimensions I can find. I'm also thinking to make it out of 25mm tube (1"). Does that seem about right?

Originally Posted by LocNar
The centring mechanism is what defines the kinematics for the most part. Listen to Sokel1, he is pointing you the right direction for this.

I'm afraid I didn't quite follow what Sokel1 was saying there. I followed the links and tried to make sense of what I was seeing but I'm afraid it was all a bit lost on me.

Is this the part of VO101MMaister's design Sokel1 is referring to when he (I assume he) says:
Quote
the "Next Generation" gimbals born with use of CAM for centre

[Linked Image]



Originally Posted by LocNar
Here's some rudder pedals I made from cheap $20 Aeronca Chief pedals off ebay and some scrap metal/pushrods...

Yes, I do very much like these however I'm not so confident I'll be able to find the same on eBay myself. Fortunately though they don't look to hard to make from scratch, the actual pedal part that is.



Originally Posted by LocNar
ps. a Schwinn 205p is a great recumbent exercise bike to convert into a semi-supine cockpit I gather you want to build http://imgur.com/a/UBiV6

Yeah, that does seem to lend itself to conversion surprisingly well, but again I'm going to try not to rely upon "GumTree Bargains".


Non-Joystick Chat:
While I don't want to divert the discussion from joysticks for too long my current plan is to hack a "Pello" armchair from IKEA:
[Linked Image]
These are one of the cheepest armchairs in store and that single 'bucket' piece looks like it will mount in a cockpit with out too much trouble. I also won't mind cutting cushions and hacksawing a channel for the control-stick if I find I need the stick closer (control sticks in gliders do have a tendency to reside surprisingly close to the family jewels ;)).

What ever chair I opt for I intend to fit it to a base somewhat similar to the heli-chair mentioned at the top of this post:
[Linked Image]

This base will then fit into a frame that holds the monitors and has previsions for placing a keyboard and mouse etc:
[Linked Image]

The ergonomics of this designed was based off the image shown above:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


By the way, the reason I'm keen to have the 'heli-chair' removable is that I intend to make it possible to drag the chair down to the local flying park, plug it into a transmitter and use it to fly remote controlled gliders with an FPV setup.

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/30/17 08:39 AM.
#4313924 - 11/21/16 01:45 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Looks to me that might be a tad bit difficult to get in and out of without having a bunch of swing away arms.

#4313927 - 11/21/16 01:50 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Last edited by Sokol1; 11/21/16 01:51 PM.
#4314007 - 11/21/16 05:57 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Stick should be ~300mm in pitch/250mm in roll from axes to tip of grip. In a glider it will look shorter than this because the axes are *below the seatpan.

As far as the rear offset goes, that varies a lot from ship to ship. It's to allow you to make full fwd pitch without hitting the panel, which needs to be close enough to reach with your hands to fiddle knobs. Too much offset and it will mash your balls when you pull back. My SZD-59 has about 5" of rear offset, and the grip is 9" from the panel, so the base is 4" back.

1" is good size, older ships had 7/8" (22mm). I've tried to find inexpensive bending, but no luck. I have found some aluminum crutches (polio type) sometimes have the perfect section you can easily cut out with a tube cutter of hacksaw and have a perfect glider stick though.

Those Aeronca pedals come up more often than you might think... search "pedals" in the 'aviation parts' category of ebay motors, I see them come up time to time still. Sure you can make some, but this is much easier and you end up with real chromoly airplane parts and by the time all is said and done might be cheaper than trying to fabricate them.

One problem I see with your cockpit layout is ingress/egress. Also, if you have your monitors coupled to the rest of the cockpit you are sitting in, there will be a lot of wiggling of monitors and it won't go away unless you overbuild everything with large metal tubing, well into the zone of diminishing returns. Just make the component holding monitors separate from the part you sit in, and if it can 'swing' into place or roll/slide into place after you are already seated it solves your ingress/egress issue.

I see you plan triple monitors... what glider sim that is worth flying supports this? Condor is really the only sim with realistic enough flight model to do actual glider flying justice and being stuck on DX7 is not capable of triple monitor. Of course there is the much rumored Condor V2 which has been promised by 'christmas' since 2007, though no one has said what year. The original thread about it got nuked, but I started one a while back that is currently in General that has lots of teases by OXO suggesting it's coming soon.

I really hope so, because I want to get my sailplane pit back in order and start virtual soaring... it's such a perfect scenario for VR, but not until we are out of the DX7 dark ages...

#4314172 - 11/22/16 07:22 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: Falstar]  
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Originally Posted by Falstar
Looks to me that might be a tad bit difficult to get in and out of without having a bunch of swing away arms.

Yes, I havn't yet got to thinking about ingress and egress.

As it is though there is space for one to swing their leg between the chair and that upright holding the monitors:
[Linked Image]
Possibly then with your legs astride the chair you may be able to put your weight on one leg and with your hand on the top of the chair for balance one may be able to draw the other leg over the seat, kind of like getting off a motorcycle. It probably won't be that graceful but hopefully it will work. I'm not exactly sure, and to be honest I haven't given it a great deal of thought but I'm sure I'll work something out.

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/28/17 07:50 AM.
#4314183 - 11/22/16 08:39 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: LocNar]  
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Originally Posted by LocNar
Stick should be ~300mm in pitch/250mm in roll from axes to tip of grip. In a glider it will look shorter than this because the axes are *below the seatpan.

Are you saying the pitch and roll axis are actually hinged at different locations?

I understood from what you said before that the two axis had differing ranges of movement (as in differing degrees of deflection when at full lock) but do you actually mean they are 'hinged' at different heights.
Kind of like this example from a Piper (but around the other way - ie. short roll and long pitch):
[Linked Image]
Is that what you mean?



Originally Posted by LocNar
Those Aeronca pedals come up more often than you might think... search "pedals" in the 'aviation parts' category of ebay motors, I see them come up time to time still. Sure you can make some, but this is much easier and you end up with real chromoly airplane parts and by the time all is said and done might be cheaper than trying to fabricate them.

I'll keep an eye out. I suspect eBay's aviation section is not nearly as well resourced in Australia as it is in other parts of the world but I'll keep my eyes open. At present there is a pair of Tiger Moth pedals going for 180 AUD but something more suitable may well show up. We'll see.


Originally Posted by LocNar
One problem I see with your cockpit layout is ingress/egress. Also, if you have your monitors coupled to the rest of the cockpit you are sitting in, there will be a lot of wiggling of monitors and it won't go away unless you overbuild everything with large metal tubing, well into the zone of diminishing returns. Just make the component holding monitors separate from the part you sit in, and if it can 'swing' into place or roll/slide into place after you are already seated it solves your ingress/egress issue.

The monitor stand is actually a seperate piece to the chair piece:
[Linked Image]

It's kind of hard to see in the rendering but the idea is that the chair piece slides into the stand and the stand ends up being anchored by the chair itself. With this approach one can have the screens as close or as far as they please:
[Linked Image]

As I mentioned before though, the idea of having the chair removable is actually to facilitate taking it to the field and flying RC aircraft rather than aiding ingress/egress as such. I'm also considering making it possible to mount wheels to that back cross piece to make it easier to drag down to the park.
I don't know how feasible it's going to be to realise this part of the project but, well, it's still in the plans at the moment wink

Originally Posted by LocNar
I see you plan triple monitors... what glider sim that is worth flying supports this? Condor is really the only sim with realistic enough flight model to do actual glider flying justice and being stuck on DX7 is not capable of triple monitor. Of course there is the much rumored Condor V2 which has been promised by 'christmas' since 2007, though no one has said what year. The original thread about it got nuked, but I started one a while back that is currently in General that has lots of teases by OXO suggesting it's coming soon.

I really hope so, because I want to get my sailplane pit back in order and start virtual soaring... it's such a perfect scenario for VR, but not until we are out of the DX7 dark ages...

Arr, sigh, yes. I have read that thread as well frown

There is of course nothing preventing this setup being used with only one monitor and that is how I will start as at present I have but one monitor to give but I figured I might as well design it such that it can accommodate 3. However until hell freezes over I mean "Condor V2 is released" the multi monitor setup will be restricted to flying FSX or XPlane, or what ever else.

By the way, although the sim-pit's ergonomics are fashioned after that of a glider it by no means means I only intend to fly gliders in it. After reading robv's (Cataclysm72's) thread I have been inspired to check out Elite: Dangerous so may well end up becoming an extremely laid back Commander in that universe (though I would use a regular HOTAS setup rather than the gliders flight stick). Although it would be a little odd regular aircraft and even helicopters would be perfectly viable to fly from within the 'bath-tub' posture of this pit, though I grant it would feel strange smile

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/28/17 07:53 AM.
#4314184 - 11/22/16 08:56 AM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: Sokol1]  
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Originally Posted by Sokol1


Thanks Sokol1.
I have tried to read through that thread but I'm afraid I just can't comprehend what it is talking about.
There were these two interesting images which obviously relate to the image you've indicated:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

These are clearly discussing the same design as one of the images Rob sent:
[Linked Image]

But I'm afraid the actual discussion is all lost on me.

I assume those two independent levers is what they are referring to when they keep talking about the "Top of the heart".
Also what does "zagruzhateli" mean? I've read it several times in the translation but I can't workout what it means.

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/28/17 07:59 AM.
#4314279 - 11/22/16 03:51 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Well, I have just spent far too much of my night reading this Russian thread: КО&#1053...;#1090;ик BRD-DS
It's about the joystick made out of plate I posted the image of above, and I must say this badboy looks really good:
[Linked Image]

Unfortunately there is not much information in English about it however I did come across a related thread on this site. While the thread's mainly about his KG13 handgrip project there are mentions made of the gimble, and it's alot easier to understand than the Russian translation:
[Linked Image]

He also has a short thread about a equaly inspiring set of rudder pedals:
[Linked Image]

While neither of these are the Open Hardware project I was hoping to find/create they are nonetheless incredibly inspiring 'hacker-esk' products worthy of consideration.

Last edited by S_Bartfast; 03/28/17 08:00 AM.
#4314299 - 11/22/16 04:33 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Well, read Russian forums through Google Translator is really confuse, need do some "interpretation"... smile

"Zagruzathelli/lya" is what we call CAM mechanism.

Be use two lever in the mechanism simplify deal with asymmetry of one lever, basically one half of levers - identical in two sides - distend the spring.


Unless some specific made for helicopter piloting gimbals based on damper for retain the stick position if you want a return to center force over your stick, you need rely on springs.

All commercial joysticks available use a center mechanism base on "pincer" (CH, Cobra M5, VKB Gladiator, Cougar, early Tm) or "piston" (Saitek's, Logitech , Warthog).

Both system provide a "hard" (clunk) center position, and the "piston" has a additional drawback of require more force to leave center position, and no require additional force for move from X to Y axis or vice-versa after leave the center position.

A alternative method is opposite springs in "X" - what was used only in Cougar MOD (EvenStrain, NN_Dam, UberNXT), and some sticks for military simulation (HighRev SIm now Bugeye) this provide a very "soft" center.

A good DIY interpretation of this system:


Flying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKzTfXgZKLI

CAM mechanism is way to deal with this inconvenients, providing a less clunk but tactile center position, can have a more "hard" or soft center based on CAM profile as well a progressive force through stick movement.

Maybe this video explain better this:













#4314320 - 11/22/16 05:36 PM Re: Open Hardware Joystick [Re: S_Bartfast]  
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 161
Yes, the length of the moment arm the stick makes from the tip of the grip to the center of the axis pivots. Longer for pitch -very small pitch inputs result in massive speed changes so the stick is longer in this axis, which is conducive to these very fine inputs that you tend to hold for lengths of time.

Roll is much shorter because you do much more vigorous inputs in that axis, and much more often. The shorter length accommodates this type of input. It also makes any normal joysticks that have x/y axes on the same height feel nothing like an actual glider, so if you are building from scratch you might as well copy the actual kinematics, it's quite an important ingredient in a sim.


You should pick up a pair of VKB's pedals. They are quite reasonably priced though I see now they are discontinued. Shame, a used pair just sold for $150 not long ago... They are the only off-shelf pedals that will feel like a sailplane, and they use cam centering so you would be able to study/rev engineer the mechanism for your stick. Can probably find a used pair for sale, they only have 1 axis so many get them as introductory pedals and upgrade later.

http://gostratojet.com/TRudderPedals/index.html


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