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#4309461 - 11/06/16 12:16 PM VR Support  
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I understand that official plans for Virtual Reality support (Oculus Rift) have been abandoned, but I thought Id start a thread in which unofficial support efforts can be posted. FSX has no official VR support but you can buy the FlyInside add-on for it. Perhaps something like this could materialize for RoF also. It seems Cliffs of Dover also has unofficial VR suppler made by users, so a lot seems possible. I, for one, never fly without the Rift anymore and I could imagine that VR support could give RoF a new lease of life, given the excellent quality of the basic product.

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#4309630 - 11/07/16 01:50 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I've looked into that a couple of times, starting back when I had an Oculus DK2 (now moved to Vive). I suggested Rise of Flight to Dan Church from FlyInside, but I think it will always be too small a niche for him. I also had one of the devs from Vireio look into adding Rise of Flight support, but I think he had a hard time dealing with the FOV and other settings - in any case it was never developed.

Now, with no plan to actively develop for Rise of Flight or its successor in the next 5+ years, I'd also love to get some sort of good (ie FlyInside level) VR support for RoF. Being a coder myself (but not for gaming) at work, I've slowly considered whether I might try developing that myself or not - the answer is probably that I won't be able to find the time though, but I'll at least give it at look.

The other option for WW1 in VR would be WOFF UE - I suspect the tricks that Dan Church applied to FSX might port quite well to CFS3 - but then again this is possibly even smaller a niche. I've certainly mentioned it on FlyInside forums before, but with xplane support being worked on currently I wouldn't expect to hear anything about that in the next few months.

A shame really, there's no doubt that WW1 flying is a perfect match for current gen VR, and it would be a dream for me.

#4311717 - 11/13/16 04:23 PM Re: VR Support [Re: FlyingMonkey]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
Thank you for your elaborate answer. There is potentially some good news in it. Indeed; I would already be happy with WOFF VR, even though RoF is my favorite WWI sim. Even if the price of a VR interface would be higher than for more popular sims I would almost certainly buy such an add-on. I hope that you may find the time to develop a UI. I fully agree that WWI planes are excellent for VR.
It occurred to me that, in a few years time, adding VR support would be a relatively straightforward way to extend the commercial life of RoF. Then, many people will probably have VR and there will be experience with adding VR support to, for instance, Battle of Kuban. Even with modest upgrades to the sim itself, with VR it will present a whole new experience.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4311720 - 11/13/16 04:34 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I dont think there is any appetite from the Devs to extend the commercial life of RoF that requires any sort of Dev time.
Dev of RoF and active support of anything beyond maintaining the master server has stopped. Albeit without an official announcement.
If they do come back to WWI, it wont be to update RoF. It'll be for a RoF 2. But I'm not holding my breath for that either.

#4311840 - 11/14/16 12:06 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Not holding my breath either for RoF VR support - at this stage they would need to port the DX11 support back into RoF, which would require some significant work I'm sure. And then it's pretty clear that RoF 2 isn't going to happen in the next 5 years - who knows about later, but that's a long wait.

Just to be clear, if I do develop anything for RoF it will be something free - I'd just do that as a hobby and you'd have to expect something simple, without elaborate GUI. The other option would be to become more acquainted with vireio and possibly try actively help the devs supporting RoF with that.

#4312376 - 11/15/16 08:36 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I would be great if you did contact OBD about the VR support. Keep in your mind Woff UE is still based on the DirectX8.
Just hop in to the Woff forum, here on SimHQ and let them know.

#4312514 - 11/16/16 02:54 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I just did that 2 days ago Dutch. It's not impossible at all to get a DX8 game supported by VR - some other developers have implemented support for games new and old, and I hope I'll get some tricks and tips from them (especially the ones who did freeware implementations) to get started. If I understood rightly WOFF UE already uses some sort of wrapper to get DX9 shaders working (something new to UE I think). My plan is to do the initial research in December and that's when I'll probably figure out whether I'll go on with RoF or WOFF UE (I've got the feeling that the latter might be easier but we'll see), but beyond that it might take a long while before I've got anything to show (assuming I don't get stuck) because I don't have loads of spare time - still, this is something I'm highly motivated to work on because otherwise we might wait a very long time before we see any ww1 action in VR.

Last edited by FlyingMonkey; 11/16/16 02:55 AM.
#4312661 - 11/16/16 08:14 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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It is great to hear that you will be giving it a try, FlyingMonkey! I have no computer skills whatsoever, so but I was involved in some aircraft testing in WOFF and I can contact the developers if you want and ask for their help or information.

#4312732 - 11/17/16 12:43 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Thanks Stickshaker - it's all good, I am now in contact with them. I'm planning to do some initial research in about 2 weeks to evaluate how much work will be needed, how much help I can get from people who have developped 3rd party VR support (would be great if I can get some advice from Dan Church who developped FlyInside FSX) etc. I'm just a C++ coder - no experience with gaming code so don't get too hopeful yet as I might discover that it's too hard for me.

#4313425 - 11/19/16 02:23 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FlyingMonkey, it is hard not to get excited or hopeful, but I will do my best (as, probably, many others will).
Regardless of whether you will succeed, many thanks for your efforts!

#4315640 - 11/27/16 05:10 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FlyingMonkey, I believe there is a mod for giving VR support to Il-2 Cliffs of Dover, too. May that be any help to you? I can try and find out more if you want.

#4315709 - 11/28/16 12:07 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Stickshaker - I thought the VR support for ClOD was still in early development - but in any case if I can find who is doing it and discuss how they did it that might help me - the fist thing I'll do will be to find people who implemented similar VR support so that I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

A lot of these mods need to do the same thing: intercept directX calls to translate them into DirectX 11 and therefore have access to the steamVR API. Then there's the issue of obtaining a lagless 1:1 head tracking solution - I've got the feeling that this might have been the trickiest part for RoF (using vorpx or tridef based solutions always led to a very laggy and unresponsive head tracking because there's always some sort smoothing applied to head camera movements - the same might even have been the reason why IL2 BOS has a laggy head tracking in the current VR mode) - I don't think that's going to be a problem for CFS3/WOFF UE.

#4334827 - 02/05/17 04:13 PM Re: VR Support [Re: FlyingMonkey]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
Far from wanting to hurry you, I was just curious whether you have new thoughts on whether eventually VR-support for RoF or WOFF is possible. Have you acquired new information or ideas in the past months?
Best rergards,
Stickshaker

#4334928 - 02/06/17 04:44 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Very slow progress so far, but after some initial exploration I've decided to try working on WOFF first. I've done some initial research on how to do it and thanks to discussions with someone who implemented a similar system for Morrowind, I know what I need to do - I'm just very short on time currently, so I haven't gone further than reading (and I'm not done with that yet). I'm very confident that VR can be done in the case of WOFF. People like Ankor have already succeeded in implementing a directX wrapper than can manipulate the viewpoint and that's the basic thing I need to do (duplicate viewports, shift them a bit and then connect them to headtracking).
Now if it was someone else than me with more time and experience, I'd be confident that it could be done in a relatively short time, but if it's just me it's going to take a long time - we're talking months. So by all mean if anyone else wants to tackle it, feel free to do so, don't count on my work to go anywhere in the short term.

As regards ROF, I've got a bad feeling about it because of existing bugs that make trackIR stutter unless smoothing and inertia in the camera settings are set to max. This might also explain why the crude Vive support implemented in IL2 BOS felt stuttery and laggy even on high end hardware. So basically I'm a bit wary of spending a lot of time coding something that might totally fail.

We'll see how things go, but one thing is sure: our fist baby is due early May, so I'll do what I can before that, but then I'll disappear for a while until I can find spare time again - who knows how long that might take

#4335157 - 02/06/17 08:12 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyngMonkey,
On the whole that is excellent news! I mean, it seems possible to have VR for a WWI sim after all. Pity about RoF, but it cannot be helped. Take your time, getting your first baby is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. WOFF will be around for a while.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4335292 - 02/07/17 01:49 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FlyingMonkey, I have recently figured out how to control cockpit view in CFS3/WOFF and added mouse look function there. So if there's VR API that can provide head-tracking data it shouldn't be a problem to support it.

As for viewport duplication it is a bit more complicated, but since my wrapper works by recording all DX8 draw calls in a frame, processing them, and then replaying using DX9, it should be possible to replay them twice with a viewpoint offset.
However I have no VR hardware, don't know what issues to expect, and most importantly don't have time to work on this frown

#4335409 - 02/08/17 01:44 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hi AnKor, that's timely, I was planning to send you a message on that topic.

To keep it short, the best VR API to connect to at this stage would be openVR/steamVR which works both for the Vive and Oculus Rift. I own an HTC Vive (but can also do basic testing for the Rift using my old Rift DK2). Now the added pain is that openVR requires DX11 or 12, so it's not straightforward - but there are ways around that and it's possible to make the connection between openVR and a DX9 wrapper - that's what the dev working on the Morrowind VR solution was doing.

What other devs have done when they implement VR on an old game is exactly what you were mentionning: they intercept all old DX calls, apply the head tracking data to the view port, duplicate and shift it, and then they either go on and do all the work themselves, ie apply the correct transformation to the frame to be directly drawn in the VR headset (in which case I think you can still manage to do that in DX9 - I think Euro Truck Simulator 2 devs used do that in fact, although maybe not anymore. FlyInside used to do that in its early days too) or they pass that to the relevant API to do that for them (e.g. use openVR for that, but then they're translating everything to DX11 or later).


Depending on the cases, implementing VR can be straightforward, with the main issues being that the latency needs to be kept low and stuttering needs to be kept very rare. Now often the main complication comes from integrating the UI in VR, but in the case of WOFF it should be easy since the only UI that can potentially come in the way is the map. I'd aim to start with no UI work (and therefore a map no necessarily easy to use, but that's fine as a compromise to start with).
My initial plan was to develop my own code to hook on your wrapper (again following what the Morrowrift developper had opted to do) and that might still be a viable way to do it so that it doesn't take any of your time at all. But I've the got the same issue as you though - I really don't have much time, so we're talking about things that will move very slowly. Having said that I'm quite persistent when I start something and certainly don't like leaving things unfinished, so I'll keep working on that throughout this year when I can.

EDIT: oops, made it sounds worse than it is though: when relying on the openVR API there is not need to do the duplication of the viewport in fact. You pass the current viewport as determined per head tracking, and then openVR has a function to duplicate and shift that according to the user settings (ie their interpupillary distance), so that whole part is done by openVR anyway.

Last edited by FlyingMonkey; 02/08/17 02:01 AM.
#4352762 - 04/22/17 10:10 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
Is there any news to tell? In can understand that you will be very busy in the coming months…
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4353557 - 04/26/17 04:45 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hi, well my time before is almost up. The due date was actually revised from early May to this Friday at some point after the 2nd ultra sound person had changed it while she was not supposed to. So in short baby might arrive any time now, and if not it will be induced sometime next week.

Meanwhile I have made way less progress than I was hoping. I've mostly learned as much as I could regarding openVR (and steamVR) despite a terrible documentation (if it can called that), but I've found it way harder to learn how to implement the part of the code which hooks with directX (something that AnKor understands really well though, from what I understand), and in the first place I would probably need to bypasse AnKor shaders entirely to have my own dx9 to dx11 code so that I can rely on openVR directly. This is the most important part for me to really start experimenting with VR and WOFF but I've barely started reading examples of code to do that.

With baby arriving, I don't think I'll go anywhere further before much later in the year - if I manage to find spare time again that is. WW1 combat flight sims in VR is still my biggest dream in term of flight sims so I'll do what I can, but I can't promise much at that stage. If anyone else have the same sort of interest and more spare time and/or expertise then they'll probably get it done way before me, but if I'm really the only one out there willing to code this then just be patient - it might take a while but this will remain my priority in terms of spare time development project.

#4354384 - 04/29/17 10:51 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
I hope all is well with you and your partner, and that you can fully enjoy the experience of parenthood. Hopefully, some tome you can resume your work on WWI VR and you will make many people very happy. We will just be patiently waiting. It is clear where your priorities should be during this important phase in your life.
All the best,
Stickshaker

#4364943 - 06/20/17 03:00 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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OK, first I'm happy to say that our baby girl was born about a month ago, everything went well for her and my wife and it's an amazing thing being a parent.

Back to VR, I'm not going to have time to develop anything in the foreseeable future, but there's an interesting development that might lead to ROF and possibly WOFF being playable in VR: openTrack now supports Vive (I don't know whether the Rift works or not), which means that head tracking should be really good using that, and hopefully in ROF it gives us head tracking with no or little latency. And that's great news because the stereo 3D can also be achieved by using Tridef3D to have side by side 3D which can then be used to have stereo 3D in a Vive or Rift using something like virtualDesktop or BigScreen. I'm planning to test that ASAP, but of course currently ASAP could mean in 3 months, who knows...

For WOFF, I'm not sure there's a way to achieve stereo 3D with Tridef or something similar without removing Ankhor's shaders which are currently important for WOFF to function and look as intended. I'll have look at that as well.

#4365344 - 06/21/17 09:16 PM Re: VR Support [Re: FlyingMonkey]  
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I came back from the Paris Air Show and saw this! Really wonderful news! But first: congratulations on your parenthood and I am glad that you derive so much happiness from your little girl.
So we may be able to enjoy the – in my opinion – best WWI sim in VR after all. If you need help in testing let me know. I have not installed RoF on my sim-VR computer yet but I will make it a top priority if there is something to test. And I am sure that, if and when VR is working in RoF, more and more people will want to try it. Seat-of-the-pants flying is an experience to behold in VR.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4365400 - 06/22/17 03:36 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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For RoF the real test will be whether or not head tracking can happen with minimal lag using openTrack. If yes, then it will be easy to fine tune everything else. I almost got to try that yesterday. First I'll just load RoF in VR using vorpx. It's not ideal visually because it's not in 3D but it will do the trick to test the head tracking. If that goes well, then I'll go back to re installing Tridef, finding the profile for RoF (I used that on my 3D monitor a few years back) and getting this setup to display in the HMD using either Virtual Desktop or Big Screen.

If head tracking is crap, then I'll look into WOFF too. From what I've read, there are some variants of shaders that can output in side by side stereo 3D. If I can use that as a testing basis (replacing Ankhor shaders for testing purpose), I can do some simple tests to start with. Then ideally it would be something to add to Ankhor's shaders. I might PM him in the future to see whether he'd be motivated.

#4365577 - 06/22/17 07:51 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FlyingMonkey, you make it sound quite easy even if I have not even heard of most of the software that you mention. I hope that your intuition is right! And I am sure that Jason Williams and his crew hope so too.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4365630 - 06/23/17 02:02 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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In fact for Rise of Flight I'm going to have a look at an even better alternative by using Reshade - someone has developed a variant of that which can display the game in stereo 3D and apply the proper barrel distortion for a Rift or Vive. The good news is that this is free software with source code available, and there is an active community developing it, including people who use this for VR. This would remove the need for Tridef 3D. Then we still need something to display the result in the VR headset, which could be free like BigScreen or payware like Virtual Desktop. Reshade is not guaranteed to work but it is likely that it will because other shaders like ENB are known to work with it, and the stereo 3D which Tridef 3D uses for RoF uses the same method as the Reshade one, so colour me optimistic.

In any case, if I've got it figured out and fined tune for Vive I'll post a guide here on SimHQ. My objective is to test all of this over the weekend, but that's assuming that baby goes back to sleeping a bit more as she's been up and crying a lot after her 6 weeks vaccines...

#4365673 - 06/23/17 01:34 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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So back to square one I think. I've tried vorpx + opentrack with RoF, but just as I feared the head tracking in RoF is either smooth but laggy (with inertia) or not laggy and stuttery (when you set camera speed to max and inertia to zero). This is an issue that I remember having seen trackIR user reporting specifically for RoF. In VR it kills any sense of comfort and means instant nausea. As far as RoF is concerned to make VR work it would have to involve custom code that takes control of the view directly, which is technically feasible but a lot of work and not something I'll do for a long while.

Next step is to try the same sort of trick with WOFF, ie opentrack and something to display it in VR - I might try BigScreen for that tomorrow as I think Vorpx won't play nicely with Ankhor shaders. If that doesn't work I can try removing Ankhor shaders just for testing purpose but ultimately I'll need to find something that works along them because a lof of WOFF improvements involve these shaders.

#4365699 - 06/23/17 05:57 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
I’m not sure I understand. In your last post you say that vorpx does not work with RoF and that you have to go back to square one. But in your previous post you write that there is an even better alternative: reshade. Or does reshade not work after all?
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4365781 - 06/24/17 01:44 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Vorpx works, what doesn't work is that headtracking lags and stutters in RoF, and that's not linked to vorpx at all. This, as far as I understand (the issue existed with trackIR before) is because something in the way RoF implements camera movement makes it stuttery unless you apply some smoothing. Smoothing introduces a lag, and this delay between head movement and actual camera movement on screen is a no go in terms of nausea.

So Reshade might very well work for RoF, I expect it to, but the head tracking problem will remain because in both case the method I'm using is simply openTrack, ie emulating a trackIR device using steamVR tracking information. I was only going to investigate Reshade if the head tracking was going to work fine. If you've got vorpx and would like to do the same test I can explain how to set things up for that, it's very simple (although in vorpx you need to fine tune the picture a lot to get it the right aspect and zoom level, and it's not stereo 3D either. I certainly recommend not buying it now if you don't own it already).

So my next step is to try the same with WOFF and hope that there is a direct match between openTrack and in game camera movement. Some people are apparently getting IL2 CloD and IL2 1946 to work using openTrack and similar methods to display them in VR hmd (but I"m less excited by that given that IL2 BOS in VR is covering my ww2 needs now anyway), so in some case openTrack works well for that.

Now if this fails for both RoF and WOFF, then it will be back to square 1 in the sense that my only option will be to code a proper interface between the game and steamVR, with all the complications of connecting a dx8 or dx9 game to an API which requires dx11+. For that there is no way I can do something before end 2017 at best.

#4365817 - 06/24/17 08:11 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
Thank you for this explanation. I do not have vorpx and if you recommend me not to buy it I will follow your advice.
Hopefully WOFF will give fewer problems. I can fully understand that you do not want to start work on a new interface for the moment. It would be great if you could do it in the future at all, but I suppose you first have to decide whether it is worth all the work. Perhaps you could make it payware?
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4365938 - 06/25/17 06:45 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Good news regarding WOFF: the openTrack head tracking is super smooth - I've only tested it while running WOFF in the desktop view of steamVR for a quick test but it felt and looked great already. Now the next step will be to use Reshade to apply stereo 3D and proper distortion to display WOFF in 3D in the headset!

#4365946 - 06/25/17 11:05 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FkyingMonkey, you made my day! Fantastic news! I have an older version of WOFF but will buy Ultimate Edition as soon as VR is available (I can test if needed). Despite your parenthood duties you manage to work fast!
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4366046 - 06/26/17 04:51 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Well, I'm not having much luck launching Reshade with WOFF - I've tried both version 2.0 and 3.0 but it leads to crashes. If I try searching for Reshade and WOFF or even Reshade and CFS3 I don't find anything on the net, so it might not possible to make it work. I know that people used sweetFX 2 with CFS3 and WOFF. So we might be out of luck with WOFF too unfortunately. Later on if I can free more time I can try adapting the shaders code which I have for Reshade to something else that works with WOFF or something custom, but this will have to wait. I'll probably ask around in the WOFF sub forums whether anyone had an experience using Reshade with WOFF (and maybe AnKor will know too).

The reason while I got to do so much this weekend is that after 2 weeks of hell during which Ella didn't sleep much (due to growth spurt), this weekend she has slept both at night and during daytime. Having a couple of spare hours here and there felt like being on holidays! It probably won't last though.

#4366157 - 06/26/17 09:29 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
That is a pity! I do not completely understand: is the problem that the sound does not work, or that the image cannot be converted into 3D? Even if we would have a 2D VR image for WOFF and mono sound instead of stereo, that would be enough to be able to at least fly. Or is the problem that VR does not work at all?
Good for you that you got some rest. Hopefully it will last for some time…
Best regards,
Stickshajer

#4366206 - 06/27/17 03:37 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Sorry, tha'ts me shortening everything: by stereo 3D I meand stereoscopic 3D, ie the proper 3D where 2 images are used to convey depth. But currently my problem is not only to get stereo 3D working, I also need to apply distortion to the image so that it can display properly in the VR headset. I've got a shader for that in Reshade, as well as one for the 3D, and that's really a convenient platform because we have access to the shaders code so that I could just use that, fine tune it or modify them if needed. Anyway, since someone on the WOFF forums got Reshade to work with WOFF I'll persevere and hopefully get it to work. WOFF UE is really a great ww1 sim. I had OFF years ago and went back to WOFF UE last year when I decided to try VR on it and it's really improved a lot, both visually and probably most importantly with the depth of its historical simulation. Even if I fail to implement a proper VR solution, I plan (wishful thinking probably with baby) to play using openTrack and displaying the game on virtual big screen in VR (using BigScreen for example) - not as good as proper VR but my only way to play it now that I've installed all my gear in the VR room and nowhere near a monitor.

#4366620 - 06/28/17 08:34 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
Thank you for your explanation, I think I understand now. Hopefully a solution is there to be found. I asked the developers of WOFF but understand that they are already in contact with you.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4366683 - 06/29/17 03:55 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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No worries. Check the WOFF forums, I'm going to keep posting more details there as I go.

#4366772 - 06/29/17 04:19 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I'll follow you there!

#4367024 - 07/01/17 01:41 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I'm also going to try one more thing for RoF, just in case the stuttery feeling of the head tracking is in fact a result of vorpx. Are you using a Vive or Rift? My plan is to quickly give a go at the non direct mode, ie the mode in which our vr headset simply appears as another monitor to the system (which is how the Rift DK1 and DK2 started). It's a Vive only trick (and which can come with bugs) as the Rift cannot function in this mode. If you have a Vive, then all you have to do is follow the guide I've posted in the WOFF forums to try have RoF working with Reshade, and then if you get the SBS + barrel distortion working, put your Vive in extended mode and try either moving the RoF window to the Vive and expanding it there, or even better make the Vive the primary monitor and do the same (ie move RoF to the Vive).

#4367050 - 07/01/17 10:41 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello FlyingMonkey,
It is a neat trick, but, unfortunately in this case, I have the Rift… But hopefully your perseverance pays off for other people. . And perhaps one day there will come a way to emulate the trick for the Rift.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4367244 - 07/03/17 11:55 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello everyone!

I am very interested in this thread as i use ROF only with the HTC Vive now.

I use Bigscreen Beta and Opentrack. It is not in 3d, but the immersion is still great in my opinion.

The headtracking is 100 % smooth.
I had headtracking lag when i used the Accela filter.
After i switched to EWMA filter everything worked perfect. (If it is of any help i gladly upload my opentrack profile for ROF)

I hope very much you get it to work. ROF is such a great sim and fun to play!

Edit:
The time this thread was started Opentrack had a severe bug with the Vive headtracking. Another update to version 2.3.7 fixed this. So be sure you got the newest opentrack version installed.

Last edited by Runzel; 07/03/17 11:58 AM.
#4367332 - 07/03/17 07:14 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello Runzel,
I am very glad for you. It must be breathtaking to fly over the trenches in VR.
Unfortunately I have a Rift. If you know a way to make your solution work in the Rift, please let us know. FlyingMonkey already pointed at the differences between the Rift and the Vive.
Would there be software to make the Rift think it is a Vive?
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4367337 - 07/03/17 07:45 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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StickShaker
Vorpx does the same thing for the Rift.
I tried Vorpx on my DK2 last year and managed to get 2D working in VR with using Opentrack for head tracking.

Open track was a bit hit and miss for me with the need to centre often. Which also was quite nauseating. Add to that the lack of 3D and I soon binned it.

But it seems some progress is being made here and we may have an agreeable setup for RoF, especially if we can get 3D implemented with TriDef or ReShade

#4367344 - 07/03/17 08:19 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Originally Posted by Stickshaker
Hello Runzel,
I am very glad for you. It must be breathtaking to fly over the trenches in VR.
Unfortunately I have a Rift. If you know a way to make your solution work in the Rift, please let us know. FlyingMonkey already pointed at the differences between the Rift and the Vive.
Would there be software to make the Rift think it is a Vive?
Best regards,
Stickshaker


Hello Stickshaker,

As far as i know you can use Bigscreen beta and opentrack with the Rift too (Both is free. So you can simply try without worries).
My solution is not a big deal and easily achieved with the Rift as well i guess. You will just need different settings for the Rift. I am sure you can figure something out.
I posted it on the ROF discussion board

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/50785-rof-vive-you-got-try/

The thread i posted on the ROF board is not 100 % up to date.
I recently managed to get even better results when i fake that i rotate my 3 screens 90 degree to the side, then enable Nvidia surround, then start Bigscreen to emulate the 3 rotated screens into 1 giant (not rotated) screen.

Fake rotate means i just click in the menu that i want to rotate them, so everything is displayed on its side. I dont rotate the screens in real. You can use Monitor Profile Switcher for that. Then it is just a button press to rotate them or to set it back to default.

Now in cockpit view i have nearly no distortion to the sides. Before that, the view was kind of warped (everything seemed bigger) far left and right. And perfect view over the cockpit into the sky. FOV got a massive boost.
It is simply a huge screen that is bent around me and i got super accurate headtracking. It is however NOT VR. But still it is by far the best experience i ever got with ROF. But that is just me. Others tend to disagree on that matter. Try for yourself!

#4367373 - 07/04/17 03:19 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Displaying ROF on a virtual screen in VR is definitely something I'll use for the time being. I had decent results doing that with WOFF and using BigScreen. The case of WOFF I also got Tridef 3D to work, so the screen is in 3D.

My issue with ROF is that on Bigscreen head tracking looks smooth and responsive enough, but if you look well enough you might see that there is a tiny bit of lag and that there is a tiny bit of stutter - now if you use Vorpx to wrap the image around you whole view this is enough to make the whole experience uncomfortable. I'm planning to give a go at another method, which is Reshade + stereo3D and distortion shaders, then displayed straight to HMD using steamVR non direct mode. In theory this might work better as long as I can keep 90fps going (async timewarp won't help here because openTrack has the head tracking working at the same fps as the game), which might be a bit of a challenge.

I'll post an update here when I test that. Meanwhile I also have detailed everything I tested so far in a thread called "WOFF and Reshade" in the WOFF forum. The more it goes and the more I'm convinced it will be worth developing something specific to connect RoF/WOFF to openVR, but that's not something I can start working on for a few months.

#4367395 - 07/04/17 11:37 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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I got it working in 3d using Reshade and the SuperDepth3d.fx shader, just like Flying Monkey explains in the WOFF forum.
In Bigscreen i enable Side by Side 3d and it is good to go.

However the result is lacking.
The performance drops to 50 fps and the headtracking does indeed stutter. And there is nearly no advantage in playing with the 3d setup. All the edges look rougher, reading text is more difficult and the gain in depth perception is minimal. It is like the fake 3d used in televisons. It gives a slight impression of depth, but comes with the disadvantage of loosing image quality. I havent tried different settings, so maybe there is room for improvement.

But for the time being i will stick with the Bigscreen, Opentrack, 2d-setting. With that setup i do not experience stutter or anything laggy with the headtracking as far as i can tell.

#4367464 - 07/04/17 05:47 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Hello Runzel and FlyingMonkey,
Thank you so much for all this advice! There is light at the end of the tunnel. I am certainly going to try this all out! It may not be perfect but I can live with the image not being 3D. I will let you know the results but it may take a while due to my unfamiliarity with the software that you mention.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4367703 - 07/06/17 03:42 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Thanks for info Runzel. The depth3D shaders can yield very different results depending on the game - for some the rendition of depth will be really good and for others it won't look good or will have many artefacts. If (but that's a big if) I could get a 2D view wrapping around the whole hmd view with smooth fps and head tracking, I'd be happy enough. But as you found out, we're more likely to see sub 90fps framerates, and even if we could achieve a 90fps average, occasional drops will feel like nasty stuttering without the help of some timewarp. And that's where the current method fails ulitmately: it ties the head tracking to the game render, while in fact we'd want that tied to the timewarp framerate so that it stays at 90fps. Opentrack won't give us that option because it emulates trackIR. So it's definitely back to square 1 for me: what I really would like is a directX9 to 11 conversion followed by a connection of the view port to openVR - then I can use native openVR functions to create a duplicate and stereo 3D port and move it according to head tracking data, and all of that with native openVR timewarp. For that RoF is a bit easier to work with that WOFF because it's already dx9, while WOFF is dx8. Many people have done the process of hooking to dx9 games to convert the directX calls to 11, I've got sample code doing that, so in theory it should be easier. I'll be optimistic and plan to slowly restart reading and tinkering around this concept in the next month or so, but it will go super slow for a while.

Meanwhile at least I know how to enjoy RoF and WOFF on BigScreen - for WOFF I have a good sense of 3D using Tridef3D but it's got a few artefacts and glitches which hopefully can be fixed. I think that's what I"ll play if I ever actually get some spare time (and I'd also like to enjoy a bit of true VR with IL2 BOS, Prepar3d and XP11).

#4367723 - 07/06/17 11:34 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Heads up!

Today i tried TriDef VR with IMPRESSIVE results.

I think it is in an early stage and on the homepage it says you need some MSI equipment (Mainboard or GPU) to use it before it is made publicly available.
Well, i got an MSI Mainboard, so i figured what the heck, lets give it a shot! There is a 90 day trial.

The software also uses a virtual desktop just like bigscreen does.
It is really simple to use. Do you want this game in 3d? --> Yes please --> Yiippieyeah!
You just select your game, click it to be in 3d, and there you go. One slider to adjust how much depth you want and another slider to get your eyes focused.

Holy cow! So good!

Constant 90 fps (It gives information about fps for the "headset" and for the "game". I think when the headset would stutter it decreases fps from the game which is displayed on your monitor to keep it smooth in VR. If that makes sense?).
Headtracking (Opentrack) - smooth
Depth perception - wonderful
Reading text in game or cockpit instruments - No problem!
Screen adjustment - as big as you like, as bent as you like, as close as you like. You can figuratively wrap it 360 degree around you.

In game the first enemy encounter was surprising ... like "What?! I hit that?", because 9 out of 10 times i would have missed that shot. I really think the 3d helps to estimate speed and distance.
If you got the chance, try it!

The 2d screen in 3d is do- and playable. Let's hope someone succeeds making it an open source solution. Because TriDef VR does come with a cost. And not only that. You dont purchase the product, you rent a license to use it for 3, 6 or 12 month.
I really dislike the "rent this software" approach. But so far TriDefVR seems to be the only product who offers an easy to use solution for VR in Rise Of Flight.

Last edited by Runzel; 07/06/17 11:36 AM.
#4367853 - 07/07/17 03:04 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Nice, thanks for the heads up. I own Tridef 3D but not their VR version (and no MSI hardware in my computer right now - if I remember rightly they will sell it for all in september though). It's still only a big virtual screen though, not a proper wrapped around VR view (ie the same thing as native VR in IL2 BOS or DCS), so while that's a great addition for the moment, the issue of finding a way to get our WW1 in proper VR remains.

#4367866 - 07/07/17 06:57 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Yes, according to their FAQ they will release it in september.

While it is true that TriDefVR uses a virtual screen, the experienced 3d differs somewhat from what i have seen so far or would have expected to be possible on a virtual screen.
The objects do not only have depth, but they seem to stick out and i got the same thoughts as in other native VR games: "That radiator control, if i reached out with my hand, i could totally touch that"-feeling.
And what they really nailed there is the text readability with supersampling. Not in DCS nor in BOS did i feel so comfortable reading mission objectives or looking at my map.

But of course, when you look straight up or down, past the virtual screen, you notice that you are in some kind of virtual space.
And another thing is when you turn your head 180° and more, you see where the screens left and right arm connects behind you. There the games image has a jump. On the one end of the VR-screen you would see the fin of your plane, but a few centimeters past that point you see for example the wing. Maybe it is possible to make the transition between images better when i find the perfect setting for opentrack.

So still plenty of room for improvement and i keep my fingers crossed proper VR will be possible in ROF.

#4368143 - 07/09/17 10:13 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Great find, Runzel! I saw on the website that RoF is one of the supported games of TriDef VR, so I am going to try it out once I am sure my computer can handle it. WOFF does not seem to be supported. I am still hoping for ‘true’ WWI VR one day but as an intermediate step this seems quite promising.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4368527 - 07/11/17 01:38 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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WOFF is not listed but it's likely that it will work. RIght now WOFF UE works alright using the "generic" profile in Tridef 3D, and I would be surprised if that didn't mean that it also works in the same way in the VR version of Tridef. But note that when I say "alright", it's because there are a few glitches (ie some struts look glitchy, some parts of some planes in the front part of the cockpit seemed to be missing - there might be a way to improve that though).

#4368566 - 07/11/17 08:47 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Runzel]  
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Thanks for the update Runzel.
I saw Tridef had gone back into VR with the MSI tie up.
Luckily I do have MSI hardware, so will have to give it a try.

Sounds promising. After trying out DCS in VR, all that was missing in RoF was the 3D

#4368598 - 07/11/17 12:52 PM Re: VR Support [Re: FlyingMonkey]  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey
WOFF is not listed but it's likely that it will work. RIght now WOFF UE works alright using the "generic" profile in Tridef 3D, and I would be surprised if that didn't mean that it also works in the same way in the VR version of Tridef. But note that when I say "alright", it's because there are a few glitches (ie some struts look glitchy, some parts of some planes in the front part of the cockpit seemed to be missing - there might be a way to improve that though).


Do you think WOFF UE is "playable" with these glitches? I've sold my trackir 5 the day my Oculus arrived, and I dearly miss playing WOFF, but can't without the trackir lol.
If only WOFF and Falcon BMS were VR...

#4368641 - 07/11/17 04:45 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Steve_F]  
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Originally Posted by Steve_F
Thanks for the update Runzel.
I saw Tridef had gone back into VR with the MSI tie up.
Luckily I do have MSI hardware, so will have to give it a try.

Sounds promising. After trying out DCS in VR, all that was missing in RoF was the 3D


Hello Steve smile

I hope you enjoy it as much as i do. I got totally hooked .. thinking about campaigns, planes, tweaking settings, new hardware to buy ... like every free minute now. The addiction is real!

A little advice about improving TriDef VR.
When you start the software and got your profile you will see the 2 sliders to increase depth and to get your eyes focused. I thought these are the only settings, but there is a lot more!

Press "0" on your number keypad. 8,4,6,2, is to navigate. "5" is select. "0" is go back.
There you enable 3d and individual focus.
Now you can give a value between 0 to 100 for objects far away and the same for objects very close.
(I got distant objects somewhere between 90 and 100, Close objects at about 20)
When you close one eye you will see how the image makes little jumps from left to right for each value increase or decrease. With this method you can align the picture to the distance between your eyes and the distance to your VR headset screen.

Put your plane on the runway, take a look outside your cockpit, so you see your cockpit up close and lots of ground near and far away. Pause it, so you can turn your head but the image remains stable.
Now tweak the settings till everything is sharp. no matter where you look and what you focus. Every bump on the ground should be aligned. From 1 meter up to the trees 500 meter away. No double images.
This should further help to improve immersion. I have no problem now spotting enemy planes and can identify them usually pretty quick.

I never had TrackIR, so i cant really compare. But from the 3 monitors I used to play with to the virtual 3d screen. It is is a huge jump forward.

Hope it helps.

P.S. Only thing that bothers me is Alt tabbing outside of ROF sometimes crashes TriDef VR (PWCG is a bit of a gamble to use).

#4368655 - 07/11/17 06:12 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Thanks for the useful tips, Runzel! I do have MSi hardware but it is a year old, so it didn’t come with the software. I’ll have to wait until September. Or until there is another solution. But from what you write it’ll be worth the wait.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4368689 - 07/11/17 08:45 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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@ Stickshaker

My MSI hardware is also one year old.
I think the software doesnt come with a new product. You can download it either way and it activates if it finds MSI components in your rig. I dont know how old they should be.

Did you run the MSI "Check Hardware" tool?
You find it here:
https://www.tridef.com/cart/pages.php?pageid=25

I just ran this tool and it said: "Congratulations! MSI product was found. You qualify for the software." or something like that.

#4368940 - 07/13/17 03:34 AM Re: VR Support [Re: SacaSoh]  
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Originally Posted by SacaSoh
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey
WOFF is not listed but it's likely that it will work. RIght now WOFF UE works alright using the "generic" profile in Tridef 3D, and I would be surprised if that didn't mean that it also works in the same way in the VR version of Tridef. But note that when I say "alright", it's because there are a few glitches (ie some struts look glitchy, some parts of some planes in the front part of the cockpit seemed to be missing - there might be a way to improve that though).


Do you think WOFF UE is "playable" with these glitches? I've sold my trackir 5 the day my Oculus arrived, and I dearly miss playing WOFF, but can't without the trackir lol.
If only WOFF and Falcon BMS were VR...


Not entirely sure as I only made a couple of quick tests with one aircraft (the N17 I think). Things might be worse or better depending on the plane, and there might be way to fine tune the Tridef profile to improve these issues. Not really possible for me to test more these days as our baby girl is proving very clingy currently. I'm lucky if I get to have 15 min on my own at my desk (or in VR).

I had the same sort of motivation as you to make WOFF or ROF work: I still have my trackIR, but in fact all my flight gear is in our guest/VR room now, where I've got sort of modular cockpit with a chair, a stick stand and an old PC case with throttle, mini keyboard and trim wheel stuck to it, and it's not possible or convenient to drag all that stuff back to the study where the monitor actually is (I've got the computer and VR stuff in VR room, then 10m usb and HDMI cables connecting to the study where I do my traditional on monitor gaming, coding and general computer usage. So just having WOFF on a big VR screen and relying on the Vive tracking is now my only way to play WOFF and ROF. But I won't be satisfied until I give a serious go at coding proper VR for one of these games - at least I've got currently more time to read when I'm stuck with the baby in my arms, so I'm currently reading a lot of stuff about implementing VR and having a look at others code to do that for non VR games.

#4368953 - 07/13/17 10:15 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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OK on the back of this thread and the fact that BoS works so well in VR, I have decided not to connect up my DK2 to test this stuff out and have pulled the trigger on a CV1.
A decision made even easier by the fact that there is a CV1 sale on right now. £399 with touch controllers and 7 games package smile
Found it too hard to resist. Buy button was like a magnet to me finger

#4369055 - 07/13/17 07:39 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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biggrin I know that feeling.

They call it "Summer of Rift". Looks like they took the gloves off and battle the competition hard with a bargain price.
Good for the customers for sure.

I hope headtracking with the CV1 works good with opentrack. I cant tell, cause i got the Vive.

#4369433 - 07/16/17 09:04 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Posts: 182
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Runzel, you are right. Thanks for pointing me to the test tool. Got TriDef VR working now. I have mixed feelings about it. It is by no means real VR: moving your head does not alter the view from the cockpit and the area in which RoF is shown is so small that you nearly always see the TriDef background ‘desktop’ somewhere. But at least we can fly in RoF again until – hopefully – a definitive solution arrives – freeware or payware.
I use the following method for adjusting the view - just give it here as an option. I zoom out the ROF cockpit view as much as possible and set the size of the screen in TriDef VR at maximum. Then I set the screen distance as far as possible to get not only a good view of the instruments but also to the left and right, but still without seeing too much of the desktop. Finally, I set the curving of the screen so that the wings are not too bent but I still can look to the sides a bit without seeing too much of the desktop, and I center the view so that if I look forward, I see as little of the desktop as possible. The view may need to be adjusted after take-off since the fuselage is more or less horizontal, which is often not the case when the plane is sitting on the ground.
Flying Monkey, I am in the same boat as you: two computers in two different places, one VR, one non-VR. But I don’t have a big screen for the non-VR computer, so it is not really motivating to fly non-VR anymore.
Flying RoF again makes me realize once more what a splendid sim it is.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4369437 - 07/16/17 10:49 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Steve_F Online cool
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Steve_F  Online Cool
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Have to agree, used Tridef yesterday and came away feeling exactly the same.
It's not really VR, just a bigscreen type of app more suited to watching films than FPS or Sims. The earlier Tridef VR dev was for true VR, where you were placed in the 3d world.
This is more more a virtual wraparound fixed screen, no good for tracking enemy in a dog fight, if the enemy go above, below or behind you lose them.
Was soon frustrated at looking at the Tridef background when I looked up or down.

Might try Vorpx again with Reshade 3D, the screen moves with you head giving you a more realistic VR experience. Only issue I have with Vorpx was that I struggled to get the tracking synced which soon brought on nausea.
Opentrack seems to be a lot better now, so may be Vorpx will work a little better.

#4369440 - 07/16/17 11:31 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Runzel Offline
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Runzel  Offline
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But i understand you did not use Opentrack together with TriDefVR?
The headtracking works really good, but i cant say for the Rift. One reason why i decided to go for the Vive was because the headtracking is not achieved with cameras which are more error-prone.

And why is the screen so small?!
If you look to the bottom of the Virtual desktop you should see 2 grey (near invisible) boxes that you can focus with the center of your headset and a menu should pop up which lets you adjust the screen to any size you want.

The big advantage of the VR goggles is that they completely replace TrackIR, give a big screen and 3d.
I needed some time to figure out the right settings, but now i honestly don't see a lot of difference to the "true" VR.

And if i may give another update.
The resolution of the headset is fixed, but there is supersampling, which as far as i understand, is some kind of antialiasing and provides a sharper image.
The used multiplier is hidden in a file, by default set to 1.0 and needed to be manipulated with an editor. No more!

"OpenVR-AdvancedSettings"
https://github.com/matzman666/OpenVR-AdvancedSettings

I ran it through my Comodo Antivir and used it in Sandbox mode. Seems clean and lot of VR sites and discussion boards promote it.
So if you havent, give it a try.

By default the "Application Supersampling" is at a Multiplier of 1.0.
You can adjust it in game to higher values and do not even have to restart the program to work. I use it at 3.0 and might crank it up to 3.5. (In theory this works "linear" and should give you 3 times the pixel you got before).
So if your computer can handle it you can make your vr headset next generation today.

I have ROF now just on 1 screen which i replace virtually and wrap it halfway around me. So all the processing power goes into the VR setting and not in the 3 screens i use normally. The Virtual screen covers more than my natural FOV and i have to turn my head in every direction like if i sat in a cockpit and wanted to look sideways, up or down.

Damn, i wish you guys would be like next door and i could show you. If you play this game in my place and tell me afterwards it is not bloody amazing i owe you a beer or two...
But i honestly beg you, don't give up too easy. It might be we differ in opinion, but what you describe is nowhere near what i got running here.

Edit:
Just saw you did resize the screen. I just added at picture of my TriDefVR settings that work for me best in 2560 x 1440 game resolution.
(Größe = Size; Entfernung = Distance)

And Steve, why do you loose track of the enemy? If you use opentrack you just have to insert values that make your view turn 180 degrees, while you turn your head only 90 degrees. Is the same with TrackIR i assume. Otherwise you would have lost your enemy then too. With TrackIR you cant turn your head 180 degrees and still see the screens in front of you.

Attached Files Screen Size.jpg
Last edited by Runzel; 07/16/17 11:56 AM. Reason: Attached Pic
#4369455 - 07/16/17 02:29 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Steve_F Online cool
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Steve_F  Online Cool
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Because If I'm going to have to set it up to mimic a screen and TrackIR set up I might as well get the benefit of my using my 34" high res monitor @3440x1440 and TIR and not use the Rift.

What Tridef offers is not VR it's an app presented in VR.
If the tridef screen moved with your head it would be so much more workable

#4369462 - 07/16/17 03:08 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Runzel Offline
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Runzel  Offline
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I play lots of VR games and find the differences between VR and an app in VR in this setting (sitting experience, no roomscale) to be existent but minor. (I also got DCS and IL-2 BOS in VR to compare)

Of course you have a sharper image on a high res monitor. But i would always prefer the planes life-sized and in 3d.
The cockpit details, screws, metal badges etc. did not notice them as much in 2d on monitor.

It needs getting used to, but i consider the experience a much better one.
But to each his own smile

#4369474 - 07/16/17 04:51 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Steve_F Online cool
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Steve_F  Online Cool
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I think the difference in opinion is you have come from a static 3 monitor view without TiR, so maybe you are more used to the restriction.
Whereas I have been using TIR for the last 10 years and have become very used to a 360 view by moving my head.
Looking up in Tridef and losing the screen was disconcerting. Essentilly we are looking at a static screen in VR.
Having that screen move with the HMD tracking would make all the difference.

#4369537 - 07/17/17 01:47 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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FlyingMonkey Offline
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Yep, I agree with Steve_F, for me the difference between a big static virtual screen in VR and a proper VR view is huge - I'm only happy because at least I can play WOFF/ROF with that as opposed to not playing at all, but that's still not fulfilling my dream of WW1 flying in VR.

Too bad I'm going to spend my time tinkering with the Gunfighter Pro instead of coding that VR support instead, I wonder who is to blame for that... Just kidding (mostly), my motivation will probably be even greater now that I'll have that stick to use in RoF/WOFF

#4369581 - 07/17/17 08:32 AM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
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Steve_F Online cool
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Steve_F  Online Cool
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Might have to delay sending that stick.
I'm holding hostage until you show us something workable in RoF smile

Reinstalled Vorpx yesterday to try out with reshade 3d and Opentrack with no success, Reshade and Vorpx are incompatible and crash RoF.
Tried it without reshade and got some promising results, head tracking was in sync although very jittery.
Going to play with Opentrack settings to see if that can be smoothed out.


#4370324 - 07/21/17 12:16 PM Re: VR Support [Re: Stickshaker]  
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 182
Stickshaker Offline
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Stickshaker  Offline
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Posts: 182
Netherlands
I also think Steve is correct. But, Runzel, I am glad for you that it is such an improvement from your perspective. And it can only get better in the future, if fate (or FlyingMonkey or Steve) smiles at us.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

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