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#4297995 - 09/21/16 10:18 PM Howitzer minimum range  
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hansundfranz Offline
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Whats the minimum range a modern self propelled howitzer can shoot over a wall?
Meaning maximum elevation and minimum charge.

Whats the minimum distance it can shoot firing flat?
Meaning aminung directly at the target (point blank) how does fuzeing work in that situation?
Could it shoot and kill a bunch of soldiers say 200m away or would the shells not explode reliably?

Ballpark numbers would be fine

Last edited by hansundfranz; 09/21/16 10:18 PM.
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#4298018 - 09/22/16 01:57 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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That is actually a good question. Most modern howitzers can be fired directly onto a target right in front of them. And there are a number of HEAT projectiles out there for emergency use against armor. As to what is the minimum safe distance an HE round will go bang? I have no idea.

Best way to find out would be either go to a manufactures web sight and see if they have anything posted on that or look at the weapon systems manual. I have a feeling its going to be all over the place depending on gun type and country of origin.

Why do you want to know anyways? It is an interesting question.

Another thought. It may well be 100 percent what fuse types are available for the shells in question. Looking that up might be the ticket if you REALLY want to know what sort of howitzer can fire stupid close in direct fire.

Last edited by FlashBurn; 09/22/16 02:09 AM.
#4298019 - 09/22/16 02:17 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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Google is a cool tool. Just found this.

http://forums.eugensystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=51066


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#4298030 - 09/22/16 03:04 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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That is a games forum. And seems to be just rough percentage of max range. There is no reason you could not do something totally stupid like fire a 105mm howitzer into a pile of loose dirt at 100 meters with a timed fuse. Well, if the gun depresses that far. And many older howitzers could depress to like -5 degrees for some reason. But seems like you may end up just skipping a shell along the ground if you do not have a fuse type that is intended for such things. But almost for sure the min range is going to be outside of lethal range for the crew. Which might well be 300 meters for some types of guns.

Need a artillery guru over here. But has anyone's army in recent times fired howitzers in direct fire close in? It happened in ww2 at times when things went all wacko. But usually you want to get the guns far away from direct attack ASAP.

#4298033 - 09/22/16 03:16 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
That is a games forum. And seems to be just rough percentage of max range. There is no reason you could not do something totally stupid like fire a 105mm howitzer into a pile of loose dirt at 100 meters with a timed fuse. Well, if the gun depresses that far. And many older howitzers could depress to like -5 degrees for some reason. But seems like you may end up just skipping a shell along the ground if you do not have a fuse type that is intended for such things. But almost for sure the min range is going to be outside of lethal range for the crew. Which might well be 300 meters for some types of guns.

Need a artillery guru over here. But has anyone's army in recent times fired howitzers in direct fire close in? It happened in ww2 at times when things went all wacko. But usually you want to get the guns far away from direct attack ASAP.



Not so sure you would find someone with much real world experience in this, that lived. Kinda
like playing the old game of Jarts. Or shooting the bow and arrow straight up and running from it.

Or not unlike Mortar Minimum shooting ranges, without killing yourself. Artillery with kill ranges
really changes the game.


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#4298035 - 09/22/16 03:24 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: JimK]  
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Originally Posted By: JimK
Not so sure you would find someone with much real world experience in this, that lived. Kinda
like playing the old game of Jarts. Or shooting the bow and arrow straight up and running from it.

Yep, used to throw the Jarts as high as I could and try to keep from getting hit as they came down. They got thrown out after one of them got impaled in the roof of mom's car.
oops


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#4298036 - 09/22/16 03:28 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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True enough. But been poking about in google land. I have no clue about really modern fuzes, but Vietnam era ones did have a setting for direct detonation. I can not see any timed safety listed. Most timed fuzes are 2 second min. So you can do a little math with a 1 powder bag charge and figure out how far the shell gets in 2 seconds.

I can tell you right now I would not want to be inside 500 meters doing this crazy #%&*$#. Modern arty pretty much kills everyone within 55 meters of boom. And the fragments go way farther and can still kill you/mess you up way out there.

#4298039 - 09/22/16 03:31 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn


Need a artillery guru over here. But has anyone's army in recent times fired howitzers in direct fire close in? It happened in ww2 at times when things went all wacko. But usually you want to get the guns far away from direct attack ASAP.



The latest instances I can recall offhand was repelled assaults on firebases in Vietnam, using Beehive and HE fuzed to airburst almost point blank at times.

#4298042 - 09/22/16 03:38 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: Crane Hunter]  
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Originally Posted By: Crane Hunter
Originally Posted By: FlashBurn


Need a artillery guru over here. But has anyone's army in recent times fired howitzers in direct fire close in? It happened in ww2 at times when things went all wacko. But usually you want to get the guns far away from direct attack ASAP.



The latest instances I can recall offhand was repelled assaults on firebases in Vietnam, using Beehive and HE fuzed to airburst almost point blank at times.



Wonder what kind of gun? M102? That seems the most likely at a fire base. But maybe M101. That one had crazy things like that in mind when built.

#4298045 - 09/22/16 03:49 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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Actually that Nam story reminds me of a little battle that happened in Tunsia in late 42/early 43 with T-19 self propelled howitzers. Basically M2a1 howitzers on half tracks. They fired them point blank pretty much into German infantry and tanks. Barely survived the engagement as they where super close to getting over run. My point here is that an M2a1 howitzer is the same as M101. Its the same gun, new name.

#4298053 - 09/22/16 05:06 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
True enough. But been poking about in google land. I have no clue about really modern fuses, but Vietnam era ones did have a setting for direct detonation. I can not see any timed safety listed. Most timed fuses are 2 second min. So you can do a little math with a 1 powder bag charge and figure out how far the shell gets in 2 seconds.


Most indirect assets have a newer multi-option fuse capability for HE and WP type or rounds. The settings for multi-option are: 1)Delay, 2)Point Detonation, 3)Near Surface Burst and 4)Proximity. Older HE and WP (1980 and earlier) had only Delay and Point Detonation options.

Fuse option after 1980's:
1)Point Detonation-pretty self explanatory, arms once the sear pin breaks various safety devices via the concussion of the firing round. Most NATO standard indirect rounds are equipped with up to 3 safety devices.

2)Delay-various delays, time delays dependent on the fuse manufacturer, but used for bunker busting, turning forests into splinter fests or burying entrenched personnel

3)Near Surface Burst-Using either a RADAR based or other atmospheric sensored instrument, detonates 1-3 meters from the ground. Great shotgun effect for exposed dismounts or clearing rooftops/perchs without destroying the structure underneath.

4)Proximity-Uses similar sensor as above, but now bursts 3-5 meters and is more suited for Helicopter LZ denial, destroying antennas and breaking optics, as well as forcing mounted units to button up and potentially canalize them into a kill-sac and denying them better situation awareness of their pending ambush. Less powerful than NSB because blast and fragments detonate higher for greater coverage, but lesser chance of hitting greater number of troops.

Regarding Kill Zone versus Blast Radius, Flashburn pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding Kill Zone, that area is vaporizing pretty much everything in that circumference, depending on the caliber 60mm for example has a 20 meter kill zone, but a blast radius of 40-50 meters for ground detonation, whereas 120mm has a 60 meter kill zone and 100 meter blast radius. What's interesting about the above figures though, is they were all based on peacetime findings and then an additional couple hundred meters added for peacetime Danger Close firing constraints.

Danger Close rules changed a bit during the last few years when we can now bring in rounds much closer provided there are structures or terrain between you and the target. I won't elaborate much aside from saying that some of the impacting rounds are close enough to loosen your fillings and make you become a bit more spiritual than you may have been before the fight.

Now, before someone sharps shoot me, this is off the top of my head from a few years back and I don't have my Ranger handbook handy or a TACSOP, but my numbers are close.


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#4298173 - 09/22/16 03:38 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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Dude, that was an awesome post thumbsup

One thing that ahsn´t been mentioned yet is the ability of a field/light gun to fire in "high angle". Kinda like a mortar. That way it can shoot at a tgt on the back slope of a mountain/hill
This is a pic of a light gun being cleaned but firing in high angle is not much short of that.


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#4298182 - 09/22/16 04:00 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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I was FDC (13E) for an M109A6 (Paladin) battalion. I can say that given the right circumstances, it's possible to fire a high angle shot, followed by a low angle shot on the same target, and have both rounds land at the same time. I've also seen direct fire missions at essentially point blank range, typically missions were 10km out or more.

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#4298192 - 09/22/16 04:23 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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If you can get the target to stand in front of the barrel the effective minimum range is about a millimeter at most.


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#4298204 - 09/22/16 04:59 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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According to a Canadian 105mm light gun document, they rated indirect fire as being a 15 degree angle of fall or steeper (so it had a minimal ability to search behind terrain, and to fuse reliably on softer flat ground).

This also gave a minimum range for each charge roughly half that of the listed maximum range.

High angle fires differ a bit - some guns are not able to fire in the high register (so reduced ranges at high angle are only possible with reduced charges, or with drag spoilers on the shell). Those which can generally approximate slightly more than the minimum ranges as for low angle fire.

Howitzer rounds with variable charges can get well inside the half maximum range - an example of the leIG18 with a maximum range of 3375m, max range of minimum charge 1300m and capable of both low and high angle fires. The predicted minimum range for 15degree fall angle is 680m, with the predicted range for the steep angle fire at 770m.

Of course it is also possible to engage over open sights. Impulse will be delivered to any target struck, but as you note a high order detonation requires a fuse function which may be compromised by safety devices - this is dependent on the individual fuse and how the fuse is set.

#4298219 - 09/22/16 05:55 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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Our thinking was that if you were engaging in direct fire, something had gone very badly wrong.


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#4298261 - 09/22/16 07:52 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
And many older howitzers could depress to like -5 degrees for some reason.


Two reasons I can think of:

1) securing the barrel for transit

2) firing on an incline (reverse slope/hull down)

#4298279 - 09/22/16 09:27 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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I thought about mentioning high angle fire like pic above. But even with the lowest charge possible at +80 degrees its not what a ground pounder would call close range. For arty it sure is. But not 200 meters out rifle range sort of thing. I get that is what OP is after. Which I am really curious as to the why. But it sure looks like a direct impact fuze has no fail safe other than braking the retaining pins during firing. So in theory it looks like the shortest range is whatever you can get to hit square and not skip along the ground all stupid.

The Canadians seem to still be using M101 based guns. So basically ww2 stuff with some modern twists. It should be able to fire straight on a target. I am not saying this is ideal or even good. Its really bad if you are even thinking about this. It means everything for a few KM in front of you on your side is for some reason, not there and you did not get a bug out order to get the F out of the way. Could this happen in a modern high tempo war? Well I guess if you lost your battalion command post and have everything jammed as far as radio's and things like blue force tracker or equivalent where jammed. That would sure not be easy to do. Need a major player to even go there that is willing to jam like ALL como, even theirs. Like jam every frequency crazy as that is what you would have to do with frequency hoping radios. That would sure be interesting if, far fetched.

But we still do not have a what is the minimum range of a 105, 122, 152, or 155mm howitzer. Firing down on something shells should go boom. But ultra short range I really think you might get the skipping shells thing unless the ground is somewhat loose. But like I said earlier, many of these guns do have emergency anti tank rounds made for them. And those are going to go boom for sure when they hit an afv at the correct angle. But not all howitzers are remotely the same.

#4298313 - 09/22/16 11:33 PM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: Stewie]  
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Originally Posted By: Stewie
Dude, that was an awesome post thumbsup

One thing that ahsn´t been mentioned yet is the ability of a field/light gun to fire in "high angle". Kinda like a mortar. That way it can shoot at a tgt on the back slope of a mountain/hill
This is a pic of a light gun being cleaned but firing in high angle is not much short of that.



An interesting lack of this ability within the US arsenal had many a 105mm crew transition to 120mm mortars in Afghanistan, for the reason you mention, reverse slope targeting. It also brought back the old argument about assigning mortar assets to Artillery BDE's, taking away the hip pocket artillery from the maneuver commanders.


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#4298366 - 09/23/16 08:50 AM Re: Howitzer minimum range [Re: hansundfranz]  
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In 'The real story-Platoon' ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3059622/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 ) Oliver Stone said that the final assault of the Vietcong on their base depicted in the film was real and that they had to use their howitzers as anti-tank weapons.Actually he said that 'Platoon' was based on his own experience in the Vietnam War.

I have seen it done successfully in maneuvers back in 1989 using an M-114 155mm howitzer against a static target (supposedly a tank). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M114_155_mm_howitzer

So,yes 'direct fire' (a howitzer gun used as an anti-tank weapon) as we called it can be done.
In fact it has been used in that way on a number of occasions in battle by various armies throughout history.


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