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#4291711 - 08/30/16 01:48 AM Time at Front  
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rockmedic109 Offline
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Does anybody have information on how long pilots spent at the front? I've read somewhere that the Brits would spend 6 months on the front and then be rotated back to England for 6 months but I cannot find where I read it anymore. If the squadron was not rotated back to England, the pilot came back to a new squadron.

From what I've read, The Germans seemed to have extended leaves at times and often came back to the same squadron. But this is mostly interpretation of info rather than information read as to what happened.

#4291920 - 08/30/16 06:45 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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I would imagine it varied at different times of the war. In Sagittarius Rising, Cecil Lewis states that he spent eight months overseas in 1916. Part of that time was at St. Omer building up his hours and learning to fly the Morane Parasol. In 1917 he left in April to fly with 56 squadron but I can't find a date when he returned home. However, he does mention a flight in August with Home Defense. Not sure if there's a definitive answer unless it was spelled out in a directive.

Last edited by Jammer28; 08/30/16 06:48 PM. Reason: punctuation
#4291942 - 08/30/16 08:03 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Nord, France.
For the French, I have read that sometimes Escadrilles were sent in the rear to rest or reorganization, especially for reconnaissance escadrille. Escadrille de chasse were moved to "quiet sectors", but still on the frontline.
I guess he had some leaves here or there, but Fonck scored each month of 1918.

#4291945 - 08/30/16 08:19 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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High over the Front
For the British the "rule" seemed to be 6 months at the front then 6 months at Home Defense or Training Squadrons.
Of course there are variations depending on the pilot and circumstances.

For the Germans it would appear you flew until you were dead or transfered to another job but they appeared much more liberal with their leave policy.

The French we will leave to actionjoe.

The Americans didn't get leave - long term anyway - Rickenbacker mentions this in his book as due to a pilot shortage and the obvious issue of distance.

General observations from reading...

#4292044 - 08/31/16 04:51 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Thanks guys.

I am trying to develop a personal campaign that is a combination of realism I can deal with {I will not chug castor oil and sit on a block of ice} and somewhat historical {keeping kill counts to be somewhat close to reality}.

#4292062 - 08/31/16 06:58 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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I love the "personal touch" to campaigns. Hopefully you"ll live 6 months first!

One thing I have been working on as my personal thing and touch of realism is more time off for wounds.
In my reading over the years the pilots, depending on the nature of the wound, got much more time off for recovery then in WOFF.
I get the gameplay reasoning (and this may have been inherited from CFS3) but I am not afraid to advance a campaign 2 to 6 months if needed to simulate realistic recovery.

#4292065 - 08/31/16 07:35 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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And Jammer28 if you really are curious I have 56's squadron history and can look up Cecil Lewis's time there if you like.
IIRC when the squadron first deployed to France in early April 1917 he was the first plane off the ground. By memory anyway!

#4292074 - 08/31/16 09:42 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Nord, France.
As we are talking about pilot service lenght in frontline, french pilots who were nervously exhausted were sometimes sent to "Escadrille VR 75", the discreet name of Viry-Châtillon hospital.

André Chainat was sent here after his dispute with Guynemer.



http://www.asoublies1418.fr/Default.asp?347332D3741663E62633370331D361E6266332D370472633358333D36E

#4292076 - 08/31/16 10:01 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Well now you have me curious sir. Also my French in non-exisistent.
What was the dispute?
I thought, from my limited readings on the French, that Guynemer was quite popular with all.

#4292105 - 08/31/16 11:38 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Unlike the rest of the Aeronautique Militaire, there was no "shared" in the Storks (there were maybe a few exceptions, but it was the general rule). On the 8th February 1917, a flight of Gothas attacked Nancy, Guynemer and Chainat attacked one of them, and the German is forced to land, crew is captured.

Back at the airfield, Chainat and Guynemer wrote the description of the fight on the JMO (Escadrille "War Diary")
Chainat writes first: (translation by me)

"With Lt Guynemer, catched the last of the group (of Gothas), on which Lt Guynemer shot a few rounds. At my turn, I attack. I first shot 3 rounds, then another burst of 3. After getting away to clear my jammed MG, I came back on him and I shot 200 rounds at 200 meters. The Boche continue his descent and land at Boucainville."

Then, Guynemer writes just below: (meaning he had read what Chainat had written)

"Gave chase over the field to a triplace catched up over Toul. Shot two short bursts, and one round at 10 m then MG jammed. Left engine (of the Gotha) stalled and "les boches font camarades". At this moment a SPAD attacked and by his fire forced me to leave. The Boche land at Boucainville."

He clearly ignores Chainat (he didn't even mention him) and implies that he somewhat "stole" his kill, even if he recognized that he only shot a few rounds on the german plane.

Guynemer is the famous one, so he get the kill and Chainat get mad. We don't know if they came to blows, but on the 14th February 1917, Chainat is sent to the "VR 75". He will never come back to the front, and worked in aviation technical services (STAé). Afterwards, the Gotha will finally be added to his palmares as his 11th victory.

A few weeks later, Guynemer told the fight with the Gotha to the famous journalist, Jacques Mortane. But this time, he mentionned Chainat, and praised his "boldness, skills, and cold blood"....

#4292112 - 08/31/16 12:04 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Very interesting. Thanks.
And the "other Spad" in Guynemers statement was Chainat I presume.
Someone must have been seriously "upset" (or removed) to get sent to a rest camp!

#4292623 - 09/01/16 05:04 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
And Jammer28 if you really are curious I have 56's squadron history and can look up Cecil Lewis's time there if you like.
IIRC when the squadron first deployed to France in early April 1917 he was the first plane off the ground. By memory anyway!


Absolutely! I love any tidbits of info I can get.

#4292718 - 09/01/16 08:03 PM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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High over the Front
I'll see what I can look up in the next couple

#4292841 - 09/02/16 12:41 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Cecil Arthur Lewis, Lt. Joined the squadron on March 20. 1917 and was posted to HE on July 13, 1917.

First plane of the squadron to take off for France from London Colney on April 7, 1917 at 1155.
He was very active with the squadron and flew with a variety of flight commanders - this appears normal as while they were assigned flight leaders there does not appear to be the setting of formal flight assignments for a couple of months.
Scored all of his victories (8) in his two months at the front but without going page by page I can't give you details.

Wounded in combat on July 7, 1917 while flying A'4853 (described as a painful "long red furrow seared across his back") by a graze from a MG bullet from an Alb that got on his tail while he was attacking another Alb that was diving on a flight mate. He was posted to HE 6 days later but still did some non-combat flying in that 6 day period. It is said he made "light" of this wound in his book.

This paragraph from the Internet: "Back in England, Lewis served with No. 44 and No. 61 Squadrons on Home Defence before returning to France in late 1918 with No. 152 (Night-Fighter) Squadron, flying the Sopwith Camel, and serving as a flight commander with the rank of captain."

Which leads to something though I am not sure what. There are many photographs of 56 Squadron both before and after deploying to France but, from the ones I have seen he only appears in a couple. Perhaps camera shy but when the squadron had its reunion dinner in 1968 he was absent. This is something I just now noticed though he was very much alive. Perhaps out of the country?
I've been meaning to pick up his book so this "little mystery" is a good excuse.

#4292845 - 09/02/16 01:03 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Duke

I just tagged into this thread and have Lewis book Sagittarius Rising.

What specifically do you want to know?


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#4292848 - 09/02/16 01:22 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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If he talks about it - and it is an after the fact book - how did he get along with his squadron mates?
Was he just being stoic in making light of his wounds? Apparently when the squadron commander saw it he said Cecil was going home.

Guess the fact he was wounded but continued to fly non-combat has me wondering. Maybe he was being a stud - took some days off and did some test flights before deciding the wound was bad enough to go back. Perhaps I am reading waaaaay too much into it.

If it wasn't for his non-appearence at the, fairly famous, reunion in 1968 I wouldn't give any of this a second thought. Course there are lotsa good reasons to miss a party I guess.

#4292860 - 09/02/16 02:31 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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As it reads, The Major told him the wound was good for a wound stripe and he was sent home two days later for a fortnight's leave. I suspect he had the leave coming and the wound was justification for him starting it. After the leave he was posted to 44 Dwn Hainault Farm in Essex where he learned to fly the Camel. He was assigned to Home Defense with this Sqn.

Three months into it a new commanding officer who Lewis felt didn't like him, took command and told Lewis it was time for him to go back overseas. Lewis felt he wasn't ready. He told this to a Staff Colonel at the ministry and said he could use a month or two longer as it would be his third trip overseas. The Major posted him to Rochford. Lewis felt this all was a plant to get him out of the way so the new CO of 44 could promote a friend.

As for relationship with Sqn mates there is no clear indication of a problem.


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#4292891 - 09/02/16 07:17 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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Thank you sir.

#4292897 - 09/02/16 08:20 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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For the British the usual time at the Front (from early 1916 onwards) was 6 months, allowing time off for two(2) short breaks (7 days) on leave.

If a pilot was slightly wounded, the time he spent away from the Front still had to be made up once he returned. For example, if a wounded pilot was in hospital/recuperation for 3 weeks, he then had to stay those extra 3 weeks when he returned to the Front. If he was seriously wounded and sent back to Blighty for more than 4 weeks to recover, he would then be posted to Home Establishment and either find himself posted out to another Squadron at the Front (with having to stay or the full 6 months tour) or as an Instructor, again for 6 months.

The only time a pilot would face an extended tour would be if he was promoted to Flight Commander either within his own Squadron, or another. He would then have to complete a further three (3) months at the Front, before posted back to Home Establishment.

=======================================================================================

Regarding Guynemer's universal popularity..... it was more with the public that he was popular. And that mostly due to the writings of Jacques Mortane, who definitely had a man-crush on him. Mortane was effusive in his promotion of Guynemer in the press. And Mortane never thought much of Rene Fonck. He admired his ability, but found he very reserved and withdrawn as a person. Hence he rarely wrote about him.

Undoubtedly Mortane did think very highly of Guynemer, and Guynemer was certainly the real deal. But pilots who were the equal of Guynemer didn't get the same level of publicity or exposure eg Navarre, Nungesser, Dorme, Madon to name just a few. They were written about, just not to the same level.

Here are some quotes from Guynemer's peers. They are taken from that wonderful book "Kings Of The Air" by Ian Sumner.

Adjudant Jules Vedrines welcomed Guynemer when he first came to MS3. "This 20 year old kid looked a bit of a toff. Elegant, nay refined, in appearance. And, I admit, he really got my back up. I'd seen quite enough of these chocolate-box heroes."

"Guynemer wasn't all that likeable," remembered Maurice Delporte, who flew with N23 (part of GC12). "He wasn't very pleasant, even towards his comrades in the flight. Of course, he was bit of a toff, from a very good family, but that's no excuse. Not that it detracts from his qualities as a pilot."

Rene Fisch also served with N23. "Not everyone liked Guynemer. He was very remote and self-centred. If he went into combat alongside other pilots, he always claimed any kill."

Guynemer wasn't not above trading on his popularity either. Once Guynemer was stopped by a flic as he bowled along Rue Brunel in a Sigma sports car presented to him by the manufacturer. "My name is Guynemer," he declared loftily, refusing a request to produce papers, "and you, Officer 323 of the seventeenth arrondissement, will be hearing from your superiors about your rudeness."

It's important to note that there are far more favourable comments/stories on Guynemer in the book than criticisms. Anyone can rub someone the wrong way, especially in such a high-tensioned environment that existed in Squadron's in the Great War. That should also be kept in mind when one reads comments on Rene Fonck, who it seems was not particularly liked. Appearance (from the book) are quite misleading. wink


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#4292902 - 09/02/16 09:08 AM Re: Time at Front [Re: rockmedic109]  
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High over the Front
Thanks for amplifying on the British leave policy and thanks for the insight on Guynemer.
Obviously different authors bring a bias to any writing - no matter how hard they try - so it is interesting to get all available info and attempt, from the cozy confines after the fact, to come to some value judgement.

I take it Mortane was a period journalist?

Well at least he gets a little more love then poor Fonck. One of my favorite quotes of him, made by his reported closest friend, always makes me laugh when I read it.
I could paraphrase it but that wouldn't do it justice. I'll see if I can find it.

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