#4288094 - 08/17/16 12:50 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Well, "another project" may or may not be a flight sim, but it does seem unlikely 1C would make another outside of the Il-2 realm unless it plans on going jet era.
Still, this can only be good for the franchise. Some teams are made stronger by having two people challenging each others' ideas (look at Lennon and McCartney), but some are weakened when compromise is hard to come by. I think Il-2 was weakened by stubbornness, but at the same time I don't think it would've been any better had Loft had it 100% his way.
Overall I think ROF did better with Jason calling the shots than Il-2 did with Loft on top. Can Il-2 be turned around now? I don't know. I hope so.
Of course, I also hope for a more robust SP career and coop MP. Adding coop to the campaign would be great, but even ROF never got that, just single missions. Have to go back to Il-2 1946 and F4: AF to find the most recent sims released with coop campaigns.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4288349 - 08/18/16 12:55 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Wasn't it like 10 years ago he mentioned his P-47 in the Pac sim idea? Long before he bought into ROF with 777 when neoqb dumped.
While I like ROF well enough, I'm sad he never go to do that. I hope some day he can get there again.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4288475 - 08/18/16 07:43 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Trooper117]
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
xXNightEagleXx
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
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From Jason...
''You want DX11 we are working on it. You want VR in the plan. You want new planes and new maps, in the plan. You want new features and tweaking old ones, in the plan. You want a more hardcore direction, in the plan. You want more community input into the product like mods and other content, in the plan. Just wait to see overall plan and details and you'll understand that we are trying extremely hard to make players happy, but I can only do so much with so little. That means we need time and time is money. The team is willing, as they always have to go the extra mile. They need your support.''
Have to say I like what I'm hearing, there was also his other comment a little later...
''Our hard work plus your support is the only way we can keep going to cover all of WWII.''
That is a positive statement that the game will not just stay on the Eastern Front! What i believe here is that they burned most of the budget (some stolen from early backers with lies) for a new direction that was supposed to increase their player pool (obviously aiming to WT success), which resulted in a huge fail (sure still on business but way way way way way way way behind WT numbers). Now they are trying to do things differently, maybe more faithful to what early backers was waiting for when they invested their money. I can't speak for others, for me they have already burned themselves. There is no way i give them even a penny. If in the future they delivery a 10/10 product them they will start the redemption path, otherwise they can go out of business. They didn't even admitted their mistakes (which would be a good start point), they are just trying again make money on the pocket of the core gamers with new promises (remembering last time result in nothing else than lies and lately treats and bans). NE
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#4288525 - 08/18/16 11:49 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Jedi Master]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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Wasn't it like 10 years ago he mentioned his P-47 in the Pac sim idea? Long before he bought into ROF with 777 when neoqb dumped.
While I like ROF well enough, I'm sad he never go to do that. I hope some day he can get there again.
The Jedi Master Yes I licensed the Merlin engine of BOB II: WOV fame and I built a small team and we tried to make a P-47 sim in the Pacific. Didn't work out and my backer bailed so I just went back to publishing and selling other games. Then ROF came along. That failure was a good learning experience though. Jason
Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 08/18/16 11:49 PM.
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#4288528 - 08/18/16 11:52 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Airdrop01]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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See, that just tells me I was right to swear off it after BOS. Even looking as great as it does, the utterly crazy refusal to make is SP friendly (campaign, obviously- even he spiffed up PWCG style) and especially the locked in forever level system creating supermen AI, makes it not replayable at all.
I mean I checked here wanting a different answer so I'd buy it. Oh well. These devs are nut case stubborn.
Thanks for the honest answer though, Sokol. Sorry, but we're not that stubborn. And PWCG in BOS/BOM was funded by 777 to give hardcore users an option. Anyways, I plan to do away with the level system and all that in the future. Jason
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#4288530 - 08/19/16 12:02 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: xXNightEagleXx]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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From Jason...
''You want DX11 we are working on it. You want VR in the plan. You want new planes and new maps, in the plan. You want new features and tweaking old ones, in the plan. You want a more hardcore direction, in the plan. You want more community input into the product like mods and other content, in the plan. Just wait to see overall plan and details and you'll understand that we are trying extremely hard to make players happy, but I can only do so much with so little. That means we need time and time is money. The team is willing, as they always have to go the extra mile. They need your support.''
Have to say I like what I'm hearing, there was also his other comment a little later...
''Our hard work plus your support is the only way we can keep going to cover all of WWII.''
That is a positive statement that the game will not just stay on the Eastern Front! What i believe here is that they burned most of the budget (some stolen from early backers with lies) for a new direction that was supposed to increase their player pool (obviously aiming to WT success), which resulted in a huge fail (sure still on business but way way way way way way way behind WT numbers). Now they are trying to do things differently, maybe more faithful to what early backers was waiting for when they invested their money. I can't speak for others, for me they have already burned themselves. There is no way i give them even a penny. If in the future they delivery a 10/10 product them they will start the redemption path, otherwise they can go out of business. They didn't even admitted their mistakes (which would be a good start point), they are just trying again make money on the pocket of the core gamers with new promises (remembering last time result in nothing else than lies and lately treats and bans). NE There were no lies. Only one change that was made that set this all off. You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises. Customer expectations did not match what was planned is all that happened. There was no purposeful deceit. As I have explained to the guys many times, if the word "Sturmovik" had not been in the title this would have not been an issue and a lot of the anger would have just been disappointment. Anyways, I'm just giving some perspective, but you guys can believe what you want. But if you want 1CGS to at least try to make the product more to your liking, now is the time to dial back the anger a bit. I think the word for this period should be reconciliation. Outright anger makes the powers that be not want to fund new projects. :-) Jason
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#4288539 - 08/19/16 01:22 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: 777 Studios - Jason]
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
xXNightEagleXx
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
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From Jason...
''You want DX11 we are working on it. You want VR in the plan. You want new planes and new maps, in the plan. You want new features and tweaking old ones, in the plan. You want a more hardcore direction, in the plan. You want more community input into the product like mods and other content, in the plan. Just wait to see overall plan and details and you'll understand that we are trying extremely hard to make players happy, but I can only do so much with so little. That means we need time and time is money. The team is willing, as they always have to go the extra mile. They need your support.''
Have to say I like what I'm hearing, there was also his other comment a little later...
''Our hard work plus your support is the only way we can keep going to cover all of WWII.''
That is a positive statement that the game will not just stay on the Eastern Front! What i believe here is that they burned most of the budget (some stolen from early backers with lies) for a new direction that was supposed to increase their player pool (obviously aiming to WT success), which resulted in a huge fail (sure still on business but way way way way way way way behind WT numbers). Now they are trying to do things differently, maybe more faithful to what early backers was waiting for when they invested their money. I can't speak for others, for me they have already burned themselves. There is no way i give them even a penny. If in the future they delivery a 10/10 product them they will start the redemption path, otherwise they can go out of business. They didn't even admitted their mistakes (which would be a good start point), they are just trying again make money on the pocket of the core gamers with new promises (remembering last time result in nothing else than lies and lately treats and bans). NE There were no lies. Only one change that was made that set this all off. You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises. Customer expectations did not match what was planned is all that happened. There was no purposeful deceit. As I have explained to the guys many times, if the word "Sturmovik" had not been in the title this would have not been an issue and a lot of the anger would have just been disappointment. Anyways, I'm just giving some perspective, but you guys can believe what you want. But if you want 1CGS to at least try to make the product more to your liking, now is the time to dial back the anger a bit. I think the word for this period should be reconciliation. Outright anger makes the powers that be not want to fund new projects. :-) Jason Despite of what i said, I really reserve no angry, but just a huge lack of trust. However, given your reply and the fact that I never had any direct conflict with you or on you forum (i've avoided to start any discussion), i'll close an eye and give you a trust bonus. By that i do not mean that i'll run to buy 1CGS products, since currently i'm into others games that already took a lot of money, but i'll keep an eye and who knows at the right time i might also consider to invest some money again. I appreciate your move and i hope things will be different for both sides. NE
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#4288540 - 08/19/16 01:40 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: 777 Studios - Jason]
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
bisher
I'll be your Huckleberry
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I'll be your Huckleberry
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
Manitoba, Canada
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You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises Really? This is your advice?
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#4288545 - 08/19/16 02:39 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: bisher]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises Really? This is your advice? Not advice just a comment. I'm always curious why so many give him a pass on so many things that happened with CLOD. The community got mad at 777 for taking over Sturmovik series after CLOD bombed out hard as a broken mess. Our products (design decisions aside) always worked straight away with pretty minor bugs, but some design decisions caused major major anger and some still really hold a grudge against us. I feel that what we built was no where near as disappointing or egregious as what happened with CLOD. Anyways, God bless TF for helping it become a working product for everyone who bought it. Jason
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#4288551 - 08/19/16 03:34 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 624
FlyingMonkey
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 624
Down under in Adelaide
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As far as I'm concerned while I had (still have some) issues with IL2 BOS/BOM, I certainly thought that the CLOD debacle was a lot more shocking. The unfortunate timing made it so that the CLOD incident had dented my trust quite severely, and IL2 BOS happened to step in straight away after that.
I had 150% trust in that project because I really enjoyed RoF, but that trust got dented badly when I went in to purchase early access to IL2 BOS - at that stage the big feature for me that was promised was VR, and when that didn't happen - right at the same time as VR was implemented for other sims, including good old FSX via FlyInside, then I really felt betrayed, and the cherry on the cake came in the form of the leveling system, the unlocks, the limited ability to tune settings.
Now I'd like to be supportive but I've adopted the stance to buy once the features are there, not before, got burnt enough for while with early access and pre-orders. Once VR is finally in IL2, you'll have my trust back at a much higher level, and I think I'd then buy IL2 BOM, but maybe not enough to pre-order future projects though. Although I'd pre-order Rise of Flight 2 (with VR that is), that would be my exception (and apart from that anything in the PTO would get me excited and somewhat hopeful). My 2 cents.
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#4288557 - 08/19/16 04:29 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: FlyingMonkey]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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As far as I'm concerned while I had (still have some) issues with IL2 BOS/BOM, I certainly thought that the CLOD debacle was a lot more shocking. The unfortunate timing made it so that the CLOD incident had dented my trust quite severely, and IL2 BOS happened to step in straight away after that.
I had 150% trust in that project because I really enjoyed RoF, but that trust got dented badly when I went in to purchase early access to IL2 BOS - at that stage the big feature for me that was promised was VR, and when that didn't happen - right at the same time as VR was implemented for other sims, including good old FSX via FlyInside, then I really felt betrayed, and the cherry on the cake came in the form of the leveling system, the unlocks, the limited ability to tune settings.
Now I'd like to be supportive but I've adopted the stance to buy once the features are there, not before, got burnt enough for while with early access and pre-orders. Once VR is finally in IL2, you'll have my trust back at a much higher level, and I think I'd then buy IL2 BOM, but maybe not enough to pre-order future projects though. Although I'd pre-order Rise of Flight 2 (with VR that is), that would be my exception (and apart from that anything in the PTO would get me excited and somewhat hopeful). My 2 cents. Please understand that when we said we would support VR we did support it, but OCCULUS changed the API and broke our support without warning and left us with no ability to quickly build support. That was not our fault. Only now do we have the time and resources to attempt support again. I get the rest, but no one purposely betrayed anyone. Jason
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#4288560 - 08/19/16 04:54 AM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 624
FlyingMonkey
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 624
Down under in Adelaide
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Jason, from what you've posted before I do get the feeling that you think that VR support was not possible when Oculus changed their API - but right at the same time other developers, many in fact, were finding ways to support VR in DX9 software (I was following that in details being a developer myself with an emerging in VR. although for scientific research not for gaming), and this included the tour de force of a single developer implementing VR support for FSX. Seriously, FSX, that old performance hog monster. And that guy did implement that in a record time as well. Not only that but FlyInside is still my favourite VR implementation in any flight sim. So that's why I felt betrayed to be honest. It just seemed like you didn't try hard enough to keep developing VR - but I'll admit that maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture and how some specific issues made it hard to get VR working in the case of IL2 BOS - I'm aware that it's easy to go into character assassination and attribute bad intentions to people when they had genuine problems, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, especially now that you seem to be back to supporting VR.
In any case, for me it's mostly an old story already and I'll be happy to support what you'll be doing next if it's something that I can use (I've really fallen out of love for simming on monitor, and have been only doing VR simming for a couple of years already now) and which matches roughly my interests.
Last edited by FlyingMonkey; 08/19/16 04:55 AM.
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#4288631 - 08/19/16 01:04 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: 777 Studios - Jason]
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
bisher
I'll be your Huckleberry
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I'll be your Huckleberry
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
Manitoba, Canada
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You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises Really? This is your advice? Not advice just a comment. Jason Well let me give you some advice then Jason. If you want me to support this game do not make these comments. It does no good, unless you need to work through the anger you have for Maddox. But doing this privately might be best. Just need to say. As a potential customer
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#4288645 - 08/19/16 01:29 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: 777 Studios - Jason]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,562
Airdrop01
Chief Pheasant Controller
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Chief Pheasant Controller
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,562
Kansas, USA
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[quote=Airdrop01]Anyways, I plan to do away with the level system and all that in the future.
Jason This would be so wonderful. I'll keep an eye out and when that is done, I'm on board, baby. I sincerely wish you best in doing this. I'll keep an eye out!!! Thanks for coming back here and posting this.
"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11
Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11
Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
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#4288649 - 08/19/16 01:42 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Although I think "Il-2" isn't a great name to attach to a new Pac Sim, just as it was when we got Pacific Fighters as the major Il-2 addon back in the day, with CloD it has been established that it's a game series title, and not an actual indicator of that plane being in the sim. So that being said, I'd still like to see a P-47 Pac sim. With other US, British, and Japanese planes as well, naturally. "Battle of the Pacific" I suppose? Maybe not, that was considered the War in the Pacific. Besides, the others are all city names, even though the Pac War was rarely fought in cities. The name is secondary anyway. The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4288650 - 08/19/16 01:52 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sokol1]
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,671
Sunchaser
Member
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Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,671
Houston, Tx.
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Ragging on Oleg is not a wise move, there are some who believe the people involved with bos had something to do with CODs problems.
The fact that the original IL2 is still relevant is directly attributable to the excellent work done by the team under his guidance and improvements made by a loyal player base.
1C, and 777 lost the trust of many with changes in bos presentation and their response to the irritation generated.
BOS is definitely a good looking product, and there are many videos and screenshots to prove same, but too many hoops are required to get single player satisfaction and online seems anemic. There is also the issue of lost trust which will not be regained easily.
I wonder what would happen if the source code for COD was released? I think an explosion of excellence that would blow any bos + bom + whatever, off the scene.
Someday, someone might make a true successor to IL2 prime but I don't think it will be 1c or 777. Right now Team Fusion and the modding crews for IL2 1946, seem to be the main hope for continuing improvement in the small and dwindling WWII flightsim world.
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#4288668 - 08/19/16 02:25 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: 777 Studios - Jason]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
dburne
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 683
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Anyways, I plan to do away with the level system and all that in the future.
That is excellent news. Speaking as an initially very excited player that bought into the BOS Early Access pre-order plan, who shelved the sim shortly after the initial release due to the level up/ campaign, you do this and bring it into a more traditional style combat flight sim and I will update my BOS install for the first time since release and get back on board. Maybe even buy into BOM and beyond...
Don
EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
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#4288694 - 08/19/16 03:07 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: bisher]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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You should be more mad at Oleg Maddox for how CLOD was mismanaged. Talk about empty promises Really? This is your advice? Not advice just a comment. Jason Well let me give you some advice then Jason. If you want me to support this game do not make these comments. It does no good, unless you need to work through the anger you have for Maddox. But doing this privately might be best. Just need to say. As a potential customer LOL My anger at Maddox? Oh man are you guys don't know me at all. You'll see just how bad a person I am. LOL
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#4288702 - 08/19/16 03:18 PM
Re: Update 2.003
[Re: Sunchaser]
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
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Ragging on Oleg is not a wise move, there are some who believe the people involved with bos had something to do with CODs problems. Just drawing a comparison to reactions. I'm puzzled by it. Oleg is one of my heroes. We did not sabotage CLOD. Another fallacy. The fact that the original IL2 is still relevant is directly attributable to the excellent work done by the team under his guidance and improvements made by a loyal player base. Yes I came from that community and so did just about all on the 1CGS team. I remember those days well. 1C, and 777 lost the trust of many with changes in bos presentation and their response to the irritation generated. Ok fair enough. BOS is definitely a good looking product, and there are many videos and screenshots to prove same, but too many hoops are required to get single player satisfaction and online seems anemic. There is also the issue of lost trust which will not be regained easily. SP will change. I wonder what would happen if the source code for COD was released? I think an explosion of excellence that would blow any bos + bom + whatever, off the scene. I know exactly what will happen. Not quite what you envision though. Someday, someone might make a true successor to IL2 prime but I don't think it will be 1c or 777. Right now Team Fusion and the modding crews for IL2 1946, seem to be the main hope for continuing improvement in the small and dwindling WWII flightsim world. We've been counted out before only we're still here building. We must do something right. Jason
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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