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#4278098 - 07/11/16 12:29 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: PFunk]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer


Does anyone have any good ideas on how to get a developer who is not Russian/Eastern European interested in making a PC flight sim? I'm all ears. smile


there are many - but their market is civilian flight sims, which is becoming better and better.

Originally Posted By: PFunk
Wow. Kinda glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I uninstalled DCS about a month or so ago after I realized it just wasn't fun. And I know for a fact that no matter what my level of proficiency might be in DCS A-10C, if you plunked me down in the cockpit, the Air Force would be $30M poorer and I'd be dead.


I hardly spend any time with 2.0.

I spend the bulk of my time lately with P3D, I am waiting for the developer of DCS to do something new for a change.

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#4278105 - 07/11/16 12:40 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss

there are many - but their market is civilian flight sims, which is becoming better and better.

I have zero interest in flying civilian aircraft.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4278108 - 07/11/16 01:01 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: F4UDash4

Does that make sense?


Yes, absolutely. If you only have an hour or so to fly a certain night, who the heck wants to spend that entire time doing a 30 step take off procedure and then taking off and getting into formation and then doing a 30 minute flight to target?



Right, but also even getting to the point where you know HOW to do the 30 step procedures.


I've recently started trying to get into DCS, since it's been on my PC (with A-10C and Flaming Cliffs) for years now. I've spent HOURS trying to get my CH stick/rudder/throttle set up how I want it and I am not there yet. I could have flown an entire Wings Over Vietnam campaign in the same amount of time and I'm beginning to wonder now why I didn't!


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4278109 - 07/11/16 01:05 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss

there are many - but their market is civilian flight sims, which is becoming better and better.

I have zero interest in flying civilian aircraft.



I want to like some civilian sims but for me the one thing a civilian sim must have to hold my attention is detailed, accurate, real world terrain / visuals.

If I fly around over my hometown in FS9 / FSX I will not recognize ANYTHING. If the terrain, roads, buildings etc were recognizable I could enjoy flying civilian sims.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4278110 - 07/11/16 01:06 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted By: F4UDash4


I've recently started trying to get into DCS, since it's been on my PC (with A-10C and Flaming Cliffs) for years now. I've spent HOURS trying to get my CH stick/rudder/throttle set up how I want it and I am not there yet. I could have flown an entire Wings Over Vietnam campaign in the same amount of time and I'm beginning to wonder now why I didn't!


Heck, I've easily put in over 350 hours of flight time into the KA-50 since its original release and there are still some aspects of the helicopter that I haven't become fully proficient in.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4278112 - 07/11/16 01:33 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
VR COULD change the dynamic for the better for sims. But if so, it will have to start with more casual things with a larger base of potential users. More VR simmers, more titles. But its seems for many when they say "SIM" they mean flight sim. there is SO much more that can be done. If you can make something mundane interesting or I should say MORE interesting going VR, then you got something. But on the other hand, you got a billion bucks for track IR everything and some massive wrap around screens, what does goofy VR glasses really give you in a vehicle type sim? If it makes such things more accessible to more folks, yeppers good stuff.



I think that VR does improve it. I haven't used VR yet, but when I have talked to simmers who have, they say that when you roll, the VR set really tricks your brain in a way the monitor can't.


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#4278121 - 07/11/16 01:58 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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DCS native support of VR is the primary reason I've begun to try to force myself through the pain of getting myself trained to fly in DCS.

If Thirdwire were still actively creating quality "lite" flights sims for the PC with native VR support I would not bother.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4278125 - 07/11/16 02:06 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted By: F4UDash4

If Thirdwire were still actively creating quality "lite" flights sims for the PC with native VR support I would not bother.



I'm glad you brought up Thirdwire because what happened with that company is a real eye-opener in my opinion. So apparently even "lite" flight sims were not selling well enough and Thirdwire switched gears and went into making mobile games.

What does that say about the current state of the flight sim market when even lite flight sims that require a fraction of the time to learn compared to stuff like DCS and ROF fail to sell?


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4278131 - 07/11/16 02:28 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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I don't know what Thirdwires sales on PC were, they just weren't as lucrative as cell phone apps apparently. That could happen even to a DCS, if the DCS folks suddenly figured out they could triple-quadruple their income by making a cell phone app they probably would.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4278142 - 07/11/16 03:06 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss

there are many - but their market is civilian flight sims, which is becoming better and better.

I have zero interest in flying civilian aircraft.


you don't know what you are missing wink

other than the Twin Otter I fly mostly WWII era aircraft and the F/A-18 in P3D

#4278195 - 07/11/16 05:40 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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Quote:
I don't know what Thirdwires sales on PC were, they just weren't as lucrative as cell phone apps apparently. That could happen even to a DCS, if the DCS folks suddenly figured out they could triple-quadruple their income by making a cell phone app they probably would.


Mobile apps are cheaper to buy, so more people will try them, they take less time to make, so costs are lower, and the market is more accepting of nickel-and-diming that leads to more profit per customer. In other words, it works better for casual gamers.

TW is kind of a bad example. If I could describe TK in four words, they would be "good programmer, lousy businessman." He made SF the way he wanted it to be, and when users asked for relatively simple alterations/additions he would beg off saying it was too expensive or not where he wanted to go. He wouldn't advertise worth a damn. He didn't try Steam or any other platform that would provide more exposure, he wanted to be totally on his own after the debacle with Strat 1st and the other publishers, but his site was too small.

I think SFx COULD have been big...had TK not been in charge. If he was told "do X" for a wage, he could do it. When he said "I want to do that, and this is how I'm going to do it", he ground to a halt under his own lack of acumen. He spent forever making SF2:NA, and while it offered some improvements, it was more amazing for how much time he spent on things under the hood the users didn't notice and how little he spent on the things that were obvious.

The only new SF2 title (all others were remakes of SF1 titles) and it was also the last. What a shame. frown



The Jedi Master


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#4278201 - 07/11/16 05:50 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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Originally Posted By: JCathcart

We finally reached the technological level we needed to create sims we could only dream about in college, only to find that the market doesn't want them and so companies don't want to invest in them.

It breaks the heart.



Here's the problem--all that means is that more man-hours are needed to create a modern sim than those old ones. How long did it take to program those polygonal planes and rather featureless terrains? Not much. The rest of the time was spent on the game. What did you do, how did you do it, etc.
Now it takes months and months to make a plane that flies and fights accurately in realistic terrain that looks good. At that point, you have to ship and there's no time or money to make the fun part of the sim.

We need a CoD-size budget for a flight sim and it should be based on ED's work. They should license DCS World for what they've done, then make a new sim shell for it. Like how WOFF made a new shell for the flight sim based on what MS did, because MS hadn't done it themselves. At this point we can see ED's path, and either they will never do it or it will happen around 2050. It's not their priority.

To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, "your programmers spent so much time implementing hyper accurate systems and realistic modeling they never bothered to think if they should." Old flight sims appealed to a wide range of gamers. New ones appeal only to those who value modern visuals and realistic systems. The popularity and even preference of the old sims over the new ones by many gamers indicates a problem with the focus the new sim devs have picked for their products. Unfortunately, they are unwilling to listen.






The Jedi Master


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#4278206 - 07/11/16 05:58 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
I want to like some civilian sims but for me the one thing a civilian sim must have to hold my attention is detailed, accurate, real world terrain / visuals.

If I fly around over my hometown in FS9 / FSX I will not recognize ANYTHING. If the terrain, roads, buildings etc were recognizable I could enjoy flying civilian sims.


THIS!

I'm going to re-install FSX after a long absence to see what I can achieve with free add-ons.I did have some paid add-ons but it's been so long since I played it I have no idea how I will retrieve them.

I was also looking at X-Plane,but trying to decide between the 2 just confused me more.And then there is Aerofly FS 2 and Dovetail's Flight School.It seems that there is more choice for civilian sims and tons more add-ons/mods.


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#4278359 - 07/12/16 06:32 AM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Quote:
I don't know what Thirdwires sales on PC were, they just weren't as lucrative as cell phone apps apparently. That could happen even to a DCS, if the DCS folks suddenly figured out they could triple-quadruple their income by making a cell phone app they probably would.


Mobile apps are cheaper to buy, so more people will try them, they take less time to make, so costs are lower, and the market is more accepting of nickel-and-diming that leads to more profit per customer. In other words, it works better for casual gamers.

TW is kind of a bad example. If I could describe TK in four words, they would be "good programmer, lousy businessman." He made SF the way he wanted it to be, and when users asked for relatively simple alterations/additions he would beg off saying it was too expensive or not where he wanted to go. He wouldn't advertise worth a damn. He didn't try Steam or any other platform that would provide more exposure, he wanted to be totally on his own after the debacle with Strat 1st and the other publishers, but his site was too small.

I think SFx COULD have been big...had TK not been in charge. If he was told "do X" for a wage, he could do it. When he said "I want to do that, and this is how I'm going to do it", he ground to a halt under his own lack of acumen. He spent forever making SF2:NA, and while it offered some improvements, it was more amazing for how much time he spent on things under the hood the users didn't notice and how little he spent on the things that were obvious.

The only new SF2 title (all others were remakes of SF1 titles) and it was also the last. What a shame. frown



The Jedi Master


Amen to that, 100% spot on.


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#4278380 - 07/12/16 11:01 AM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted By: Chucky
Originally Posted By: F4UDash4
I want to like some civilian sims but for me the one thing a civilian sim must have to hold my attention is detailed, accurate, real world terrain / visuals.
If I fly around over my hometown in FS9 / FSX I will not recognize ANYTHING. If the terrain, roads, buildings etc were recognizable I could enjoy flying civilian sims.


THIS!

I'm going to re-install FSX after a long absence to see what I can achieve with free add-ons.I did have some paid add-ons but it's been so long since I played it I have no idea how I will retrieve them. ...


^ Yes indeed regarding terrain, THIS!
Would also like to look into FSX once more, but Windows 10 and my MS Sidewinder 2 FFB stick will not work properly together, forces much too strong and no way to cure this.. Why should MS bother about keeping up hardware compatibility eh? duh

In Rise of Flight or WOFF the stick works perfectly under Win 10 though.

Last edited by Catfish; 07/12/16 11:02 AM.
#4278386 - 07/12/16 11:28 AM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted By: Chucky


THIS!

I'm going to re-install FSX after a long absence to see what I can achieve with free add-ons


don't - get P3D v3 instead, it is FSX on steroids.

#4278396 - 07/12/16 12:22 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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Thanks Tom.I see you are a fan of P3D and yes I have looked at loads of YT videos comparing each sim.

I'm returning to simming after a long absence and I'm reluctant to spend anything until I decide that I can get back into it.I have FSX on disc somewhere,I just need to find it.I should have bought the Steam version when it was on sale.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4278400 - 07/12/16 12:31 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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I am ! smile

if you have FSX, you should install it.

FSX was great - but FPS were always an issue and needed so much tweaking, P3D does away with all that and it is very easy to update, you dont need to re-install anything.

If you can spare the $60-70 P3D costs, you can install many FSX add ons with a simple edit so long as you have FSX installed.

#4278408 - 07/12/16 01:11 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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So anyone can buy the $60 "Student" version of P3D?


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4278417 - 07/12/16 01:37 PM Re: Ah, I miss the golden age of sims [Re: JCathcart]  
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From what I gather F4U,yes.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
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