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#4262280 - 05/21/16 03:31 AM Pit building novice - a few questions  
Joined: May 2016
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Emeses Offline
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Emeses  Offline
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Good afternoon gents,

I have decided to take on a project (more for learning/personal growth than anything) to build my own joystick. I am excited about the skills I will learn along the way including using USB controllers and electronics, CAD software and simple mechanical engineering, programming, and a good excuse to add some new tools and hardware to my collection (just don't tell the wife).

Before I start my actual design, I'm in the research phase - and after a week or so of watching videos, reading forums and articles, browsing component catalogs, etc. I am stuck with a few questions. This seemed like the place where people with expertise in these areas congregate so if you have time to provide some insight I would be grateful!

1) Hall sensors. I have browsed existing joysticks to see how the pros are installing these, but I am unfortunately at a loss. For example, I cannot find where the sensors in the VKB Fat Black Mamba Mk.III gimbal are located Additionally, if I want to have a sensor for each axis, are two Hall sensors going to interfere with eachother? I plan on building a desktop or chair mounted joystick so the base of the joystick is not going to be very large, certainly not as large as a floor mounted center stick in a replica cockpit.

2) Z-axis twist. So I don't have to insert another picture, I'll reference the VKB again - if I wanted to design a gimbal with not only X and Y axis motion, but also Z-axis twist, is a cam and spring based design for the Z-axis feasable, or is there a better technique? If I want to use a Hall sensor for the Z-axis twist, how are wires from buttons/triggers/etc. from the top of the joystick routed through the center down into the base where the controller board(s) are? It seems to me that the sensor for Z-axis rotation would be in the way.

3) Axis range of motion. I know this is an item of personal preference, but what is considered a standard range of deflection for an average joystick? I never would have thought this would be a difficult piece of data to find on the internet, but alas... Looking at the Logitec Attack 3 on my desk, it seems each axis has a total of around 40 degrees of motion (20 degrees in each direction). Is there a generally accepted "optimal" range?

Thanks in advance for your time. Fly safe.

Last edited by Emeses; 05/21/16 03:38 AM.
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#4262289 - 05/21/16 04:19 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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robv Offline
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First, do you want to make this for your own pleaure or for making money? Because frankfly said, that mind of makes a huge difference.

Now for your questions.

1) the hall sensors will not affect eachother strong enough to notice, unless you position them real real close. On my design i have them 3cm apart or so and i don't see any effects. Perhaps because they are perpendicular.

2) sorry i can help you there. I made a basic rudder pedal for my pit so i didn't have to complicate my x/y stage

3) axis range gets severly dependant on the length of your stick. For example, if your stick is 50cm from the floor to your knees, and your angle is 45° both ways, you need to move your arm by a meter or so which of course get very tiring quickly. Best way is to prototype something with some bits of wood and just try it out.

It sounds like you are doing what i started last year. Which is make my own HOTAS. You can find loads of stuff on these topics on my build blog at simplicate.info/tag/joystick

Last edited by robv; 05/21/16 04:20 AM.
#4262297 - 05/21/16 05:45 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: robv]  
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Emeses Offline
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Emeses  Offline
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This will be for personal use - if anything I might have extra sets of parts machined to build one for my brother as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself... smile

#4262300 - 05/21/16 06:07 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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robv Offline
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From my experience: 3D printed parts are strong, but not as strong as CNC aluminium. I had to reengineer my designs several times to add strength to the parts. This isn't a problem, it is a learning curve! (And somewhat ironic, the whole fun of it)

#4262305 - 05/21/16 06:52 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emeses

1) For example, I cannot find where the sensors in the VKB Fat Black Mamba Mk.III gimbal are located http://www.gostratojet.com/Marketing/Gimbal_Final_3.jpg


Well, seems that still things to learn. smile


image hosting free

I suggest you browse through Avia-sim.ru, I think that BAUR CAM gimbal design will inspire you more than VKB - this model is very "condensed" and require high end CNC machine to manufacturer.

http://avia-sim.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=5637
http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=577&start=630
http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=34


Actually USB controllers and sensors are very accessible and affordable, e.g. Arduino+MMJoy2 and TLE501x sensor is very cheap and adequate for this kind or project.

I guess that your big challenge will be design the proper CAM profiles for gimbal.

As pointed previously, cost wise don't work make this, but can be "fun".

Suggestion: disassemble your Logitech 3D grip to see how "twist rudder" are made.

BTW - VKB dont use HALL sensor, but "magneto resistor" sensor - what for practical purposes do the same thing in similar way. wink











#4262306 - 05/21/16 07:01 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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robv Offline
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Oh my, "Russian gimbal big". Very very impressive work. And good to see how it all is assembled.

#4262308 - 05/21/16 07:02 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Sokol1]  
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Emeses Offline
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Thank you! I was under the misconception that VKB used Hall Effect sensors and spent a lot of time trying to figure out how they hid them in their assembly. If they use magnetoresistance sensors that makes more sense, as they typically have a flat profile.

Very much appreciated.

#4262318 - 05/21/16 08:28 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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mega_mozg_13 Offline
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Hall Effect sensors are no good. search for GMR sensors.

#4262406 - 05/21/16 03:05 PM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Yes, they sold. smile



As well 12 bits USB controller, Komaroff sensor -similar to VKB MaRS. But you can use your sensor/controller choice.

Ask then by email brd-2014 @ inbox . ru or PM in this forum.






#4262429 - 05/21/16 04:06 PM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Sokol1]  
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Emeses Offline
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Approximately how large is that thing? Looks a bit too large to have on my desk or mount to my chair (hard to tell though without a reference in the photo).

#4262432 - 05/21/16 04:12 PM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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Troll, I can only recommend Baur's work. After trying for several months to obtain a VKB Stick or Gimbal upgrade (I own a Fat Mamba MK.I) I finaly decided for Baur Stick with a KG13 grip. A few days ago it arrived after only 18 days after he has sent the package, considering that russian post is usually slow I expected atleast 1 month of wait. I've been lucky, it cleared German customs within a day.

It has pretty large throw,I read somewhere it's 20° travel from center to full deflection in any diretion. I had to modify my pit by a bit so there aren't any colisions biggrin

Edit:
Emeses,the base is about 210mm x 110mm x 70mm ,overall height with the Grip is 530mm

Last edited by Lausbub78; 05/21/16 04:17 PM.
#4262480 - 05/21/16 06:25 PM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Some details there: http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4216943/Re:_Baur%60s_KG13_Grip#Post4216943

If I dont mistake, this came with 2 CAM sets, or with "hard" and other with "soft" center and springs has two positions.

#4262689 - 05/22/16 10:30 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: ]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Troll
Thanks, Sokol1 and Lausbub78.

I too have the VKB Black Mamba Mk.II with the Mk.III gimbal. The new gimbal is great, but with an extension and a Warthog grip, it's a bit limp... I guess the Baur monster is sturdier in that respect?
How tall is it from the floor to the lowest part of your hand, when resting on the grip? How short vs. long is it possible to make it?
How is the centering? Do you feel a "detent" in the center, or is it smooth?



The Warthog grip is heavier than the KG13,so I imagine it would be also a bit limb. But it's possible to add stronger springs.
From floor to my hand it's around 400mm,I have it adjusted to the lowest position. On the picture Sokol1 has posted you can see 4 holes on the shaft, the upper 2 holes is the highest you can mount the tube.
There are 2 sets of CAM profiles,one is smooth and you can not feel any transition in the center. With this profile it's very light in the center but it still returns to center perfectly when you take hands off the stick. The other profile is with noticable center,I haven't tried this one yet.

#4262737 - 05/22/16 01:44 PM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Emeses]  
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Steven190 Offline
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I am waiting for one of Baur's excellent units.

We have an issue right now shipping to the US from Russia. Once he has solved this we all can enjoy his work.

Good luck Baur.


AMD Phonom 2 X4 965, Asus M4N96 EVO mobo, Windows 7 64 bit OS
8g Corsair MSX2 DHX c7
RaptorX 300 gig w/500 gig backup drive
2) GTX 480 Hydro copper,Koolance water system
Dell 2405 FP monitor
Creative X-Fi Exteme
Track4Pro/ Vector 6DOF
Bu0836 controller/ Simped pedals
#4262962 - 05/23/16 07:52 AM Re: Pit building novice - a few questions [Re: Steven190]  
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Baur Offline
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Originally Posted By: Steven190
Good luck Baur.
Thank you, I hope that all problems will be solved.


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