I think the problem is everyone's. Relationships are a problem for everyone. The fairy tales aside, the lies told about what they are supposed to look like is not reality. If you still cling to that reality, you will never understand women.

It's a dividing line either you cross or you won't. If you refuse to accept this, you will not understand and you will still have the fairy tale version of things, which by now I would assume you see there's something wrong with it. How long will keep going pursuing that, holding out for it, waiting for it, still assuming it's out there going to pop? When do you give that illusion up and see things for what they are?

Men and women are not the same, that's a fundamental mistake that men make to assume that when they look for a soul mate or something. They think that they're going to find that woman who thinks the same way as they do, that doesn't happen. As I've said before, that's the way men think, that's the kind of stuff you see in the movies, written by and for men who don't have a clue about women.

Women absolutely positively view you differently than you view them. Their sex drives are different, their brains are wired different, they're different.

Keep believing otherwise- then you fall into one or two categories, which are the flip sides of the same coin.

1) You're a traditionalist, you believe in romance, chivalry, and this sort of thing. Well, look what that is- chivalry is not a code women are expected to reciprocate- they're not even capable of it. It's men who risk their lives and are self sacrificing for women, men are the romantic ones and the ones in awe of women- they put women on the pedestal. Women simply are not expected to return sentiments like that. Do women shield men in danger with their own lives as much as men do for women- it rarely happens the same way. Likewise, it's men much much more likely to commit suicide after a broken relationship than women. That shows how much women actually care about men.

2) You're a modern feminist or feminized man. With third wave feminism, the goal isn't to make women equal with men (which women don't really want with men anyway), but to declare women, again, superior and to put them on a pedestal.

All relationships are transactional- nobody gives their affections out of charity, a woman will never give herself to you just simply because you exist and you deserve it. There is something you must be able to do for her, or provide for her, you're a utility. There was a fellow named Briffault who summed it up nicely-



Women are attracted to guys they respect- they trade up in respect, not down. So the problem in long term relationships is that unless the guy continues to keep offering more to the woman, she starts losing respect as a function of time. You have to keep providing more, as they're never satisfied. There's a problem though- if you give in and give a woman everything her heart desires, like a spoiled child, she still loses respect for you. She'll take it and resent you for giving in and giving her everything. You can't respect someone who kisses your ass. It doesn't work that way. It's in their nature to always want more- that is what creates an ideal mother ias a woman who can keep extracting resources or favors from their mates or their suitors. That's in their biology.

So men are really in the dark at what happens. In the beginning of a relationship, that's when they're awash in pair bonding hormones responsible for that feeling called love. Over time, as that wears down, the woman will change and doesn't act the same way. That's when her hypergamy instincts kick in, and she starts putting crap on the male to satisfy her more and more. The male works harder to please with less benefits coming back his way.

But keep believing in fairy tales, it's your life. Do as you wish.

A woman's life is more valuable than a man's. A woman's eggs are more expensive than a man's sperm. Males continually produce sperm over their lifetime, there's always more where that came from. A man can potentially impregnate several woman at a time, but a single woman can only be pregnant once at a time for a long period, and then still has to raise those children. Therefore, women are the more expensive commodity. When men are in large supply because of the lack of wars or famines or whatever, and their labor is replaced by machines or computers, they become increasingly worth less. Attractive women on the other hand, well, it doesn't happen the same way. They're always desireable.

Basically a society needs fewer high value men who can impregnate lots of women rather than lots of mediocre men and a few women to procreate in order to propagate the community with healthy offspring. So on a large scale, men's lives are not worth as much as women's. And our culture does everything to promote that idea. It's only getting worse and worse. I've said this before, in the past, the males were much more of a catch than they are today.

Barnyard princple.

How much of this is going to be on the final ?

I have the Cliff Notes version if you want them.


Mechanus does make many valid points though. Humanity overall is becoming less and less valuable due to an oversupply and a lessening demand for labor but this is especially true for men as Mechanus pointed out.

Yes. But it is not exactly mind blowing knowledge for folks who are of average adjustment in the mixed crouds found in society.

Huh, I thought he was just a broken record.

They were, and they weren't.

Our concepts of love and romance are fairly new and not necessarily universal across all cultures (even today).

Coupling was decided by families, not individuals, and people made their marriages work because the only other choice was to be absolutely miserable - and a lot were.* This was true even in the lower classes, and if one was truly poor one didn't get married at all.

Right through the Victorian Era a man had a wife and a mistress and that was perfectly fine.

Personally, I never thought getting married was a "finish line" or anything of the sort. I viewed it as a solemn vow that was going to take effort to fulfill. It's definitely been an adventure so far and just keeps on getting better.

Part of that is to stay interesting. Not sexy, not adoring, not romantic, but interesting. After all that great sex people have to talk to each other if they live in the same house, and if there isn't anything to share it kind of falls apart.

* Even in the lack of arranged marriages there is the matter of the illusion of free will. When people are given a choice of mates from a group selected for them (through a whole host of mechanisms), it's not really free choice. If I ask what you'd like to eat - an apple or an orange - I'm not asking you what you'd like, I telling you to pick one or the other.

this is all I see from Mechanus, had to turn that on long ago. Never seen a guy talk so much in circles and just bloviate about himself.

As far as I can tell, the hostility comes from fellows who sort of sense that this is what is true, but they're not ready to accept it. Anger and frustration is probably a normal reaction when their eyes begin to open. If it didn't bother them, they wouldn't get upset. Block me if you must, I never block any of you.

I'm not religious, but there's something to take from the Adam and Eve story from the Old Testament. I think there is profound wisdom in it.

What happens? They have it all, living in the garden of Eden. Everything they could want was provided and taken for. What does woman do? That's not enough. She wants more. Thus the curse of Eve- the curse of being a woman. Never. Satisfied. Ancient cultures knew something even then.

Is it better to always give or to always receive? It's probably empty either way, but I think it's worse to be the one to always expect to receive, since that person is dependent on external forces, rather than independently able to find their own source of strength, and so on. The difference between man and woman.

If you believe in a Creator, he, she, it, or whatever has made it this way. Whether you believe in a Creator or whether you believe this is naturally how our species evolved with our without that, the same outcome either way. Consider it a warning that they left behind when writing these parables and stories you see in so many cultures.

It exposes your understanding of things if you think that is why people are hostile to your obsessive postings on this.

Why do you continue this, you are not doing yourself any favors. Certainly you can see that people are not laughing with you.

Have you ever looked over at a car on the highway and seen a really old man with a really old lady in the passenger seat? Most of the time the really old man just has the '1,000 yard stare' as they go down the road. The women is usually just sitting there silent. They look like they have been married for about sixty years, and the secret to their success is that they can just barely stand each other enough of the time to keep it together. You sometimes see them in a restaurant like a Denny's or a Golden Corral. The whole meal, no conversation, no drama, no stress, no bull sheet, no nothing. Yet, they both seem pretty content.

All I can say Mechanus, is lighten up dude. It's not that complicated. Just like a new born baby, it just happens everyday.

Well, I do lighten up all the time.

I'm terrible at small talk though- never understood it, I'm not good at it or really capable of it. Yeah, provocative topics interest me. That might get people irritated, I'm not trying to do that on purpose, I have nothing to offer in the way of small talk, though.

And I don't look at people in public and assume a whole lot about what goes on at home, there's the public display and what really happens back home.

As people move into their twilight years, it's hoped that things calm down a bit when the hormones are no longer in play.

Even then I'll tell you something personal about my grandparents- content as you put it, but they slept apart in separate bedrooms for decades, didn't really spend a lot of time together, they watched separate TV shows in separate rooms, did different things around the house. The little time they did spend together was about an hour at dinner time, which was enough for them.

And did they seem happy and content?

Damaged goods-Sounds like you've got a good grip on your life though. That post does shed light on your other posts. Carry on.

I'm not sure. I never asked them what they really thought or felt. They seemed content to be apart but for the one hour or so they were together, then they just did their own thing. I kind of regret that, but I was too young to understand that kind of thing to ask those kinds of questions. I'll never know.

And I have to stress something here- nothing I say about this is original, so if you think this is all coming from me, that would be incorrect. I've invented nothing about any of this.

It would be naive to assume that people haven't studied relationships and extensive discussions haven't gone on about them. Something as important as relationships have been dissected like a science.

I think the problem with males is that they are usually the ones to dismiss these topics because they aren't as technical, they don't think they are as important, or they aren't as interested in them. Thus again the disadvantage they face in their relationships with women, who do tend to study these things much, much more. It's an inherent imbalance that men are typically more uncomfortable in rectifying, therefore, they're always much more clueless than women about relationships and are easier blindsided.

I read Mechanus' posts and accept that he's more pick-up artist than the settling down kind - and with that none of what he writes is offensive.

Heck, been there, done that, managed not to get a t-shirt or a diagnosis. If the goal is to pick up chicks, have fun, some laughs, and move right along when it's not fun any more, then the science and art of attraction are best to be studied. It doesn't work in the long run in a marriage - one can't fake anything for more than a few months, and the first blush is just that - but it does work wonders for a Saturday Night (or a Tuesday afternoon).

I admire people who realize they're not cut out for the commitment of marriage and stay single. Loads of people just aren't built for it and try it anyway, usually multiple times, and are miserable. And yes, one can flip from man-about-town to stay-at-home Dad pretty easily, if one really wants to.

My wife is brilliant and understands there is a difference between taming and domesticating animals. And real men are no different.

Just stating the obvious, Mechanus' perspective is with dating and short-term hookups whereas my perspective is being in a long term relationship (all that I know), where total trust was established eons ago.

My efforts have been all about getting the spark back, and now to keep the flame going for the duration. I can pinpoint the very day my life and marriage began changing for the better (well, if only I could find the paperwork to an emergency doctors visit). I knew on that evening of pill popping, EKGs and scheduling of next day early morning stress tests that my wife was really going to stick by me no matter what. Why I doubted it near the end of the previous 20-something years, I don't really know other than the fact that we didn't seem to like each other anymore (love was there, not so much friendship...if that makes any sense).

It's been only the last 8 years (out of 32, 28 of them married) of turning it around, 3 that it's been *really* good and last July (I think) in Atlanta, we realized we'd done it, we'd made our relationship what we'd always hoped it would be. Really though, the first 5 or so years of marriage were good if not great, but it started going south after that, right up to that doctors appointment.

I'm doing it by going back to what got it all started in the first place, and it wasn't my intelligence nor my money (which were in very short supply ). It's mainly just spending quality time together, and doing lots of fun and romantic things.

Our first date was a concert (Alabama '84) and we've always enjoyed listening to music together, especially live music where you also feel the energy of the audience and are encouraged to get a little physical, if just a waist holding sway. I feel like I hit pay dirt in this regard (thanks Baton Rouge! ). For example, swaying with your Mrs. while the band right in front of you is belting out Heart's "Alone" is flipping awesome!

Blanket under the stars, little notes and short letters, phone calls just to say "I'm thinking of you", everything I can possibly think of that worked then...also works today.

But it takes two to make it work...

She *could* just roll her eyes and consider my actions too corny or high schoolish, but she doesn't. Same with Friday night's spontaneous lip-locking, she could have pulled away and said, "Knock it off!" or "Quit being silly.". Instead she submitted and melted into my arms (damn, now I'm sounding all mushy and stuff).

I believe what she's been missing from me is assertion (which shows desire), beginning somewhere around my late-20's when I started becoming *really* fat. It's hard to feel manly with a huge belly and moobs, ya know? Not to mention problems caused by being seriously overweight and blood pressure in the stratosphere, take a Viagra in this condition and your heart explodes?

Assertion shouldn't be confused with aggression though, that to me is when you can cross a line of consent and communication is key to knowing exactly where the lines are drawn. I say if you're not sure in the moment, err on the side of caution (assuming you're not signing detailed contracts like in the movies ). Or just use "Banana" as the safety word!

I don't know if I'm very interesting to be around, but I sure do try to show her a good time and I'm working hard to look my best!