I'd like some input on a project for CLoD, RoF and Il-2 BoS.

I'm thinking of building a gunner' position which could be manned by a child using Ultimarc AimTrak.

The concept is fairly simple: I would build a basic MG out of wood which would have the AimTrak installed on end of the barrel as per the image on the linked page. The MG would be attached to a gimbal on a reduced angle scarf ring, or perhaps simply a post- simulating a gunner's position. One of my children could then operate the gun while I pilot and fun/indoctrination into combat flight simming would ensue

The above doesn't seem too challenging. The system above would be linked to a spare computer and monitor I have running a different game install operating multiplayer either through LAN or online.

The only concern I have is whether the AimTrak and TIR 3 (+ vector) would interfere with each other. I don't think they will since the AimTrak device on the gun is "receiving" while for TIR the "receiving" unit is mounted on the monitor.

Does anyone have any experience with AimTrak? and if so, with AimTrak and TIR?

Cheers,
C_G

Not much in the way of response; I guess I'm going into uncharted territory here.

I've taken the plunge and ordered the AimTrak unit. I'm going to start making the MG while I wait for the unit to arrive- It's not going to look too fancy but it will have to be sturdy since it has to hold up to rough handling from enthousiastic children, ages 10, 8 and 4.

Very interesting, looking forward to hearing your followup posting on it...

Awesome idea.:)

I HIGHLY WOULD NOT NOT RECOMMEND THIS.

a few years ago bought a product called XFPS Storm Light Gun.

it uses similar technology as the AimTrak.

TERRIBLE.
it looks cool when u see someone playing it on youtube.
but in real life usage, it is not accurate at all.
i thought it would be a 1:1 type accuracy.
its more of a interpolation between trackIR and a Sony playstation move controller.

i make a loose comparison to this AimTrak tech as if you were using Kinect.
RESPONSE was like "ALMOST THERE"

if you can deal with "ALMOST THERE" sensitivity..
then waste your time with Aim Trak.

ONE of my dreams is to make something as you described.

given the experience of building sim controllers.

My dream is to build a "mini gun" controller, and i hope that DCS heuy will someday support mulitplay mulit-position online gameplay.

unfortunately i CANNOT build my "mini gun" controllers, because ultimately it is limited by the GAME settings.
if i were to build a "mini-gun' controller using analogue potentometers.

THE ONLY GAME THAT WOULD SUPPORT IT is ARMA series (i.e. ARMA2, ARMA3)

I tried to survey IL2-cliffs of dover to see if it was feasible to support a minigun controller, But it wont work because the gunner positions have limited traverse limits, compared to the camera view limits.

in laymen's terms.. you can look all around, but the in game turret gun only can point in a very small area.

if the turret gun traverse is limited, that is not going to help either a joystick, let alone an infra-red tracked light gun... in addition to mapping the controller or light gun to the X, Y axis in the game controls settings-if the game even had an option to allow you to map the settings

i havent tried Rise of flight, i dont know what the in-game traverse limits are.
I feel ARMA would be successful, because not only that you can map various controller settings, but also, the in game traverse limits for mounted weapons on vehicles make it possible to swing the mounted gun (or turret) in most any direction, regardless where you look on screen.

i also would have built a gun like you also, but NOT for one or two games.

I hope in the future, digital combat simulator will have support for addition multiplayer co-pilot/gunner on aircraft.

this is a photo from a military contractor, which is what i want to make one day, if GAMES supported the functionality that i have mentioned.
[u][/u]

As harsh as hannibal's opinion may seem, I concur. I purchased an AimTrak unit built into a GunCon shell(to use as a lightgun) from the manufacturer, and it disappointed me greatly.

Even calibrating it every single time I tried it, it never felt 1:1, and it felt very "floaty", as it seemed to have a large amount of latency.


On combining it with TrackIR: If you're using the IR emitters on the TrackIR unit, that will confuse the AimTrak. It looks for a pattern of IR LEDs just like TrackIR does, so any other sources will have it jumping around or getting stuck.

i should be more supportive.

i like you idea.

i hope it works.

i just know i dont have success.

good luck.

please share your results and prove me wrong!



happy weekend!

Thanks for your input Hannibal.
The AimTrak has a better reputation than its competitors and has some pretty good reviews on the Arcade Cabinet forums. I hope it won't be too bad. On the other hand, Pfeil shared your concerns specifically with respect to AimTrak, so...

I'm hoping that because AimTrak can be treated as a mouse by Il2 BoS, that it will work OK as with an actual mouse. It sounds like you've given this a fair bit of thought and research already though, so I really hope I can find a solution.

@ Pfeil, IIRC it is possible to turn off the IR emitters on the TIR unit. This should eliminate the confusion on the part of the AimTrak unit. Since the LEDs of the Aimtrak Unit will be emitting plenty of IR the TIR reflectors should be clearly lit for the TIR5 unit to identify.
I'm a lot more concerned about your comments re: "floatiness" and latency of the AimTrak unit. Those could be show-stoppers...

Well, nothing ventured nothing gained! I'll slap it together and we'll see if it's workable

Think the major question is how the Aim Track movements will translate for game controls, as axis? As mouse? As keys?

As Hannibal say, in CloD at least is a typical "Clo'Disaster" try control gunners with joystick axis, the only turret correct modeled for axis control was Br.20 rear turret - a electric powered turret - the other turret in other planes, all with manual pivot MG was done for mouse control, but TF patchs broken Br.20 turret axis control trying "fix" this turret for "mouse aim'ers"...

even if you made the controller 1:1 perfect, no lag.

you are still AGAIN limited but the game, the game still has to support the use of a light gun.
most games are mouse look, as if you have a gun sight stuck to your face.

thats why i mention ARMA series works, because its one of the few games that all, camera view being detached from down-sights of a gun. (unless you wana play with a gun-sight stuck to your face lol)

unless Cold_Gambler can petition or convince the Team Fusion modders to get the multi-seat planes with turrets to function correctly...

The thing is that in CloD the turrets are modeled correct at start, each with his own particularities, one powered, other pivot - Blenheim combine both, but the last part is only partially modeled. Take some time for me realise this.

But occur that "gamers" are used to managed generic turrets in Il-2'46 and other flight games with mouse like they use mouse in desktop, so "CloD are bugged"...

For my kids, especially the 4-year-old, this is actually probably better as I won't have to keep reminding them about lining up the sights(lead-shooting is going to be hard enough already) they'll just have to "put the circle around the plane and pull the trigger".

The main point is to engage them in my hobby and have fun, realism isn't the primary objective
But if the aiming is laggy or inaccurate they won't be happy because they'll feel cheated when they should have made hits but were foiled by crappy tech.

This would be a great way to bond with a son or daughter, fly missions together until they are old enough to be a wingman.

This sounds really cool. If aimtrak turns out to be the biggest roadblock, You could also build a gimbal/pintle mount mg controller using a gutted joystick, or even an old mouse/trackball. I look forward to seeing your progress

Going back to the land before time (I feel old),Microsofts Combat Flight Simulator had an addon called "Tailgunner" that used the Mouse for direction of the guns..

something like this would make a nice mg mount: https://www.reddit.com/r/HotasDIY/comments/4i7jme/pitchroll_friction_gimbals_for_warthog_using_g502/

Das mine

Was a really simple gimbals to make, using basic shop tools and rather easy materials to come by. There's a sealed bearing on the pivot, and a thrust bearing allowing me to tension the assembly on the mylar slip disk. The key to friction gimbals like this is using the proper grease. I've used friction gimbals for zero-order aiming devices for years, but it took me a long time to discover Nyogel 767a and it's in a class all its own.

It's a super heavy damping grease that doesn't have the slightest big of stickiness to break it free from a standstill, simply amazing stuff. That is currently in a vertical arrangement, but could easily be horizontal for a pitch/yaw setup.

While it uses a mouse sensor in a dish, the same net result could be accomplished using pots/mouse emulation but would have better control over adjusting x/y to get the output you desire out of the finite mechanical range. Here's my mech stick, http://imgur.com/a/ixi64 which is also a friction gimbals using Nyogel, but it's pitch/yaw and uses Halls I made that I posted about here a while back. =

Very cool! I came across that sub after thinking of using a mouse for a stick or general gimbal, and was pretty impressed with your build. I could see that thing leaned back 90 degrees with some kind of gun/trigger attached.

I've been curious about thrust bearings. I want to try them on an adjustable friction throttle lever. Any recommendations? Sorry for temporarily derailing

That's nice LocNar. I'm so envious of the skills you guys have. My project is going to look much more ghetto.

My eldest helped me cut some wood on Saturday and we glued together a very rough simile of a MG.
The MG will be mounted on an upside-down skateboard truck for the vertical axis.

I haven't yet decided what the skateboard truck will be bolted to, but I'm thinking that an inverted "lazy-susan" (those rotating platters sitting on a ring) might work for the horizontal axis.

Pictures to follow...

C_G

You could use pots or rotary hall sensors on the rig you described as well. Who cares if it looks ghetto, it sounds like it will be pretty fun to use! Needs recoil "ffb"

Funny you should mention that Spogooter, the guy who makes the AimTrak unit actually offers a RECOIL UNIT for an additional USD$29. I'm not sure, however, what drives the FFB, so it may only work with gun games and not with flightsims. Edit: the recoil is completely independent from software- the solenoid is directly connected to the trigger-switch. This would work.

I try use the smallest ones I get cheaply can since the loads are light and I'm always trying to keep bulk of mechanisms down. These are 1/4" ID x 11/16 x 5/64 http://www.vxb.com/TC411-Thrust-Needle-Roller-1-4-x11-16-x5-64-inch-p/kit12472.htm and just use my own washers. My radial bearings have 3/16 ID so I use an o-ring on the shaft screw bring the id up to 1/4 for the thrust bearings.

Some progress pictures:

The mg (wood from a dishwasher delivery crate) cut and glued to size.


The mg with cut-outs for the skateboard truck. Had to buy a new 2 1/8" hole saw, worked a charm



Vertical travel sufficient

The lazy-susan is a good idea in principle (flat, wide base, inexpensive) but the ones I've seen so far have very bad bearings (not smooth, probably not durable enough for my three kids).
I have the other skateboard truck which I could mount vertically, but I dunno...
Any ideas?

Sitting here on my chair at the office I had any epiphany: the central post of a junked office chair.

I may be able to find one at a Value Village/Sally Ann. I see them thrown out on garbage day semi-regularly, but I don't want to wait that long. A chair post will certainly be smooth and sturdy enough.
EDIT: my local kijiji/Craigslist are filled with old office chairs being offered for free.

In other news, the AimTrak device should be delivered either today or tomorrow. I'll test the unit itself out to see how well the tech works even though it doesn't look like the MG itself will be ready in time.

Chair base is a good idea! If you find a plastic one you could cut the legs short and bolt them right to...something.

Got a cheap office chair at Sally Ann:




Slapped on the gun!



It works and is sturdy, stable and heavy. Not pretty, but this is a pig we'll slap some lipstick on!

In other news, the Aimtrak OEM package arrived. The soldering is going to be a challenge... Such tiny contacts!
Lots of work left to do, but the mechanical side is sorted. Electronics and aesthetics left

Just looking for an update, as I am thinking of trying this with my kids as well. Wondering how the light gun was responding in game.(especially IL2 BOS)

Me too, but more because I want to see this monstrosity of a gun

Not much progress, sadly.

I've only added some handles (Stark Enterprises subcontractor is resting after installation work):


At the bottom are the pins which held the casters to the chair, my son suggested that they look like bullets so we'll be incorporating them into the design

@ Grendelsdad: I have received but not tried the electronics yet. The Aintrak unit is capable of 6 7 buttons, which is perfect (switch to gunner, close canopy, reload gun, turret: take control, look down sight, trigger), but 4 of the contacts are going to take some precision soldering and I haven't psyched myself up to it yet...

Next I'll be attaching a piece of 3/4" copper pipe, aka the barrel, in which the Aimtrak unit will eventually be installed, and determining switch placement and wire routing.

Why not put two pipes the shorter n top of the long .
like this

I could. I'm not really going trying to make a replica MG (as I'm sure you've guessed !)- I'm going more for the "concept" of a MG for the kids' imagination to build on.

Also, the barrel is going to be fairly short for a couple of technical and practical reasons. The AimTrak unit has to be at least 2' away from the monitor which means that the longer the barrel is, the further the MG has to be positioned away; also, as I don't intend to take the unit apart, it has to be relatively compact for storage.

The "barrel" is a 6" length of 3/4" copper piping. It is hollow- to place the AimTrak unit in, and sturdy enough to protect the unit should the whole thing fall to the ground due to an over-enthousiastic defense/fighting over whose "my-turn!" it is. I'm going to cut a 4" piece out of the center piece and secure the pipe so that only about 2" will be protruding from the front. A hole will be drilled through the wood at the bottom for the wiring to pass through to an old telephone wire junction box, and from there to the various switches.

I've got a pretty good idea of where I'm going and have all the necessary tools... just not enough time to do it!

Some progress on the weekend.
Looks pretty "steampunk" atm:




The AimTrak unit is in. I hope my soldering is OK... Haven't tested the electronics at all yet. Just initial fitting at this stage.

:



Wires routed through the bottom... Three cables: USB + 4 wires + 4 wires. Hole drilled at 45 degrees:



The "breech block lever" will actuate a switch similar to the one in the photograph. The switch will obviously activate the "reload" command. The switch will not be located as in the photo, but will be secured in a slot underneath the path of travel of the bolt. In addition, an extension spring will be attached to the bolt to return it to a forward position on release and provide some resistance to use.





Here is a (rather bad) photo of the right handle, removed to carve out a space for a trigger switch. My eldest son wants a second switch in the left handle, unnecessary but easy to wire in parallel so I'll likely do it, in fact as I suspect they'll be trigger happy I may wire them in series to reduce ammo waste

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Finally here is a phone junction box. As it has 8 terminals it is perfect (7 switches + 1 common ground) to simplify things a little.




That's it for this weekend... Next week I should have time to wire the switches and test it out.

Love it!

Looks awesome!

Thanks guys! Glad you appreciate it

I think it will look a lot better once I cover the skateboard wheels and give it a couple of coats of paint. The kids are already having fun with it just swinging it around and making rat-a-tat-tat sounds so "mission partially accomplished" so far.

Wish I had more spare time to move it along faster... I just need another 2-3 hours to get all the switches and wiring done; then I can test the electronics. If that works, it won't take long to take apart, sand, prime and paint.

Then I have to make a second game-box to run the gunner position off... But that's for later and for a different thread.

C_G