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#4254380 - 04/29/16 09:46 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Nate]  
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Originally Posted By: Nate
Why can't the Author test on the nightly test builds? Or the Branches that are forked for release?

Nate


The author can and should test.......but he/she isn't necessarily going to know about every single change and dependency that is affected by the patch. The bigger question is probably why should the campaign author be responsible for changes and revisions needed for a campaign due to ED making alterations to the core sim.


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#4254384 - 04/29/16 09:53 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Neither BMS nor EECH are commercial products you can buy today, being supported by a company that exists today. They are 90s programs that have been modded beyond recognition, perhaps, but they are still products that saw commercial release last over 15 years ago.

Therefore, they do not count because they are not current retail SKUs. Just because some simmers like them doesn't mean they're competition for new products.


BMS has never been a product you can buy, but you **CAN** buy Falcon 4.0 via The Falcon Collection on Steam or GoG. While Falcon 4.0 is no longer "supported," BMS does have a very active "independent dev team" who, considering what they've done to a very old sim, are quite dedicated and talented individuals. I'm less familiar with EECH though so I'll hold my comments on that. A quick eBay search does easily turn up copies of EECH for around £10 though.

If the criteria is "current availability," then Falcon BMS at least counts. Maybe not before this Tommo/new license thing where the only source of a legit copy of Falcon 4.0 were extortionate eBay prices, but with TFC on Steam/GoG, then that has made Falcon 4.0 and BMS available again.

If the criteria is "support by publishers/developers," then yeah, Falcon BMS is obviously supported by the BMS team and has the "offical blessing" by the copyright owner(s). Again, I'm not so familiar with EECH but isn't it also being worked on as shown by the activity on the EECH sub-forum?

The fact is that a 15+ year old game is still a valid alternative and is an in-depth, full switchology sim with a better (faultier?) campaign engine. It also has the F-15 (E version, I believe), F-18, and Harrier jets. So I guess in a way, you are correct. DCS falls short as competition. wink


- Ice
#4254386 - 04/29/16 09:58 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
The author can and should test.......but he/she isn't necessarily going to know about every single change and dependency that is affected by the patch. The bigger question is probably why should the campaign author be responsible for changes and revisions needed for a campaign due to ED making alterations to the core sim.


I'd imagine ongoing product maintenance is part of the 3rd party agreement - it certainly seems to be for the aircraft modules anyway. I don't see why a 3rd party campaign should be different in this regard. Again just assumptions on my part, I don't know the details.

Nate

#4254387 - 04/29/16 10:02 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
So I guess in a way, you are correct. DCS falls short as competition. wink


That's very true, which is odd, because it is oft said that DCS only exists because it has no competition smile

Nate

#4254396 - 04/29/16 10:38 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I agree with Ice for the most part. BMS gets more stick time on my computer than DCS does. That's odd for a title that "can't be considered competition". wink

You could argue that the current DCS is somewhat just an upgraded version of Flanker 2.0 from the 90's...similar to how BMS is an upgrade from Falcon from the 90's. They even kept the same Black Sea map for 20 years.

smile


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#4254399 - 04/29/16 10:48 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I'd go back as far as Flanker 1 to be honest - can still see the direct lineage to DCS in the GUI structure, among other things.

Nate

#4254401 - 04/29/16 10:59 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I get where JM is going with the BMS comment. I don't necessarily agree, but I see his point.

Having said that, BMS remains installed on my system. To be perfectly honest, I don't even know how to reinstall DCS on my computer, what modules work with which version, or what. I'm sure I can figure it out with Google, but honestly I just can't be bothered.

What I can do, and have done, is completely stop buying ED products until this entire process is...fixed isn't the word, but maybe, until this is a product that fills that hole I'm wanting filled.

If FC3 was their money-maker, I just can't understand the resistance to capitalize on that. And, as mentioned a few posts back by Jerkzilla, I am most definitely making an assumption that an FC3 plane can be cranked out in a fraction of the time of a DCS:A-10 module.

I say this with absolutely no evidence to back it up, but I'll wager that the vast majority of users only use a fraction of the capability of a DCS-level aircraft. To be able to do that for multiple aircraft would be very impressive. The bottom line is that there are some things you need to have a good, enjoyable combat flight sim, and some things you just don't.


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#4254404 - 04/29/16 11:05 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I just want to make my position clear --- although I may come across as a BMS fanboi at the moment, there was actually a time where I knew of BMS being released but still continued flying DCS A10C and DCS Black Shark 2. However, DCS soon lost me after that. Competition is good; having choices is good. However, DCS is not something I would consider "competition" at the moment, and the ball is entirely in ED's court. They seem to be bumbling buffoos with three left feet at the moment.

I would love to be proven wrong by DCS. I would love to see them pull their collective sh-t together and get their act going.

As it stands, BMS has more maps and more aircraft, both of which are in better states of completion than DCS's offerings. I'm done being a beta tester for ED; my sim time (what little of it I have) is better spent flying and fighting in the sim, not fighting the sim. biggrin


- Ice
#4254407 - 04/29/16 11:09 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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BMS Has 1 Aircraft, (Though Multiple Variants Modeled)
w/ 3D Cockpits and Externals of Other Aircraft Skinned onto the above said systems.


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#4254410 - 04/29/16 11:14 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
BMS Has 1 Aircraft, (Though Multiple Variants Modeled)
w/ 3D Cockpits and Externals of Other Aircraft Skinned onto the above said systems.


What it does have is an engaging and immersive campaign system complete with a lively battlefield...something ED has fallen way short on since Flanker. I would rather have one heavily detailed aircraft that gives me a reason to want to fly it in a war-like scenario...then 20 different aircraft that grow tiresome in a lifeless and sterile environment.

That's just my preference though...different people are after different things.


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#4254420 - 04/30/16 12:21 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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1 aircraft, sure. But it's a modern multirole fighter.

Aaand that's it ladies and gentlemen, BMS has won the match!


Not only a modern multirole, but also several versions of it, as well as a multitude of modern weapons that are missing in DCS. And of course, something that makes it enjoyable for more than a month or two in total.

#4254434 - 04/30/16 01:49 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
I agree with Ice for the most part. BMS gets more stick time on my computer than DCS does. That's odd for a title that "can't be considered competition". wink

You could argue that the current DCS is somewhat just an upgraded version of Flanker 2.0 from the 90's...similar to how BMS is an upgrade from Falcon from the 90's. They even kept the same Black Sea map for 20 years.

smile


Because of FSX I never managed to find the time for BMS, which is a pity, but the more time I spent with FSX, the better it got, and then P3D came and it got even better and I missed all the latest BMS updates.

DCS is a very nice sim, once it is not your main flight sim, you grow more tolerant of its delays and development problems, and from a skin maker perspective, it can be very entertaining smile

#4254482 - 04/30/16 09:14 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
You're going back to these childish games again?


It is hardly childish for me to clarify when i'm not understood.

Especially so when you skew my position in the discussion.

Originally Posted By: Paradaz

Originally Posted By: Sobek
Finally they [assuming you mean ED here] have at least one leg to stand on and you want them to go back? I can promise you that is not gonna do what you want.


None of that implies that i made a promise in a capacity for ED. I made a promise. The entity of ED is separate from me. ED had no part in it. I can do that, you know?

Last edited by Sobek; 04/30/16 09:19 AM.
#4254496 - 04/30/16 10:41 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I'm not skewing anything, I included your quote.

You're talking about ED and their possible intent to move in a certain direction in argument to what someone else has said. I don't know if it's lost in translation but the quote is clearly nonsense as you're not in any position to make such a promise. Forums are for opinion yes, but you're not expressing an opinion with that statement, you're just talking absolute rubbish.


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#4254521 - 04/30/16 01:35 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
BMS Has 1 Aircraft, (Though Multiple Variants Modeled)
w/ 3D Cockpits and Externals of Other Aircraft Skinned onto the above said systems.


[sarcasm on]Yeah, because the F-16 has 4 MFDs, right? And it can do VTOL as well, right? It is also capable of carrier traps without ripping the undercarriage off, obviously.

I'm also quite sure that the F-18 and Harrier jets have the same flight characteristics of the F-16. After all, it's just an F-16 re-skinned, right?[/sarcasm off]

You seriously think the BMS devs would lower their standards to just putting different aircraft skins on?


- Ice
#4254523 - 04/30/16 01:37 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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FWIW, it was clear to me that:

"I can promise you that is not gonna do what you want."

was a representation of Sobek's certainty that the proposed action would not accomplish a desirable result. It was not worded as a representation of E.D.'s position upon the proposal, but rather as Sobek's assessment of the proposal's outcome if enacted.

#4254536 - 04/30/16 02:03 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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It wasn't clear to me otherwise I wouldn't be disputing it.

Generally, a 'promise' isn't a representation of anything.....perhaps 'I think' in this instance would be a lot closer to reality.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4254655 - 04/30/16 09:18 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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It's easy to get drawn into a BMS vs. DCS discussion, which certainly isn't my point. I hold BMS up as a standard though, to explain my point that it is not necessary to model everything at the DCS A-10 level of complexity.

To some extent the aircraft other than the F-16 ARE re-skinned F-16's. But to leave it at that is, in my opinion, to oversimplify things. While the underlying avionics and systems are F-16, virtually everything else is unique to the other aircraft. The BMS F-18 is pretty remarkable to fly, even understanding that it is not completely true to the actual aircraft.

But so what? And that's the point. For many, many of us, it doesn't have to be completely realistic to the F-18 to be "good enough." If you must have a hardcore, fully simulated experience, you have the F-16...just like in DCS you have quite a few aircraft- A-10 and Blackshark and MiG-21 for sure. So if that's what you want, you have options. But every single DCS module doesn't have to be at that level of modeling.

Am I crazy here?

I'd probably feel the same way, frankly, even if it was possible to crank out DCS-level jets at a rapid pace. The truth of the matter is that I'm starting to find BMS just too complex anymore.

At the end of the day, I want DCS to succeed. I just want to fly and have fun. Right now I can't, and I see the potential, but I can't enjoy it in its current state and that frustrates me.


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#4254674 - 05/01/16 12:21 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: toonces]  
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Originally Posted By: toonces
At the end of the day, I want DCS to succeed. I just want to fly and have fun. Right now I can't, and I see the potential, but I can't enjoy it in its current state and that frustrates me.

+1

I don't see the point on insisting that other aircraft are simply "re-skinned" F-16s though. Just because they team did not "start each aircraft from scratch," it doesn't mean the new aircraft has just been re-skinned. If they are just truly F-16s with a different "skin," then why do other aircraft (Hornet, Harrier, etc.) have characteristics not present on the F-16?

EDIT: If anyone could clarify what they mean by "re-skinned F-16s," I'd be very grateful. I don't think I fully understand the phrase at the moment, or perhaps the phrase is being used inappropriately?


- Ice
#4254714 - 05/01/16 06:05 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I have stated this in other forums, and without being too critical of ED, as I don't know what there financial position has been in the past, my greatest disappointment is that 3rd party developers have struggled along and continue to struggle along with continual bug fixes and feature additions for each version of the ED engine. It would have made more sense to have taken a more strategic approach. "We want to create an environment that will attract 3rd party developers in order to broaden appeal. Ok, let's look at other platforms that are successful eg. FSX, what do they have? A stable and mature engine. Ok we are working on something called EDGE. Let's put all our resources into getting this up and running, then we will let the 3rd party developers loose."

A classic example of this is DCS Hawk and DCS c101. Initially they were to have multiplayer support for backseat operations. Oh, wait ED have decided they won't implement that feature as originally planned so the 3rd party developers and customers get to suck eggs. Oh, but if you buy the ED module l139 you get that feature.

Things like this are wearing away at my patience.

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