It is intrusive in Mike's multiskin screenies thread, and really does not belong there, so I am continuing the discussion here.

My last question to Col Gibbon was:


He replied:


Col
My questions and your answers are helping me develop an understanding of the concept as you see it, so, two more:

1. Why four?
2. When the user has selected four planes to load, how are they actually get loaded so that they appear in the game?

A useless comment, but thank you for stepping up and moving the conversation into the dedicated thread it should have been.

I am in the process of deleting all my off topic posts from Mike's thread

Hi Tony.

[1]

4 is the maximum number of planes you can use in any one game, but I suppose you could select a plane for each slot and call the set John's Set, or what ever you like. I know you want this for online too, so you would need a way to transmit a "set" to other players, so there was no cheating.

[2]

I would have thought that obvious, your program, with a few mods

You already have the screenshot and readme loading.
Get rid of the full paths screen, as it not needed.
Add a search for type window.

It is not obvious to me

What do you think my program does?

For you to make id go what you want.

Seems to me this is becoming a pointless thread, as your playing the dummy, which your not!

This is FAR from a pointless thread and in fact this process is exactly what we need to be doing.

It's a very complex issue. If we were in the same room together we could probably hash out what we're trying to accomplish and how to do it in a couple of hours. As it is, we are separated by thousands of miles and limited to this inadequate form of communication.

So let's call this a spit balling session where we throw out questions and then question the questions WITHOUT the verbal "throwing up of hands" stuff. It takes up too much band width to be constantly going off into the weeds with these unproductive comments.

So, lead, follow or shut up.

To obtain text that it needs the EAW reads stringfiles rather than text files.
This is a text dump of what was basically a string file, and was part of the 1.28E release donkeys' years ago.

PLANES\SLOT00\P38H_01
PLANES\SLOT01\P38J_01
PLANES\SLOT02\P47C_01
PLANES\SLOT03\P47D_01
PLANES\SLOT04\P51B_01
PLANES\SLOT05\P51D_01
PLANES\SLOT06\B17G_01
PLANES\SLOT07\B24A_01
PLANES\SLOT08\B26A_01
PLANES\SLOT09\SpitVcLF_01
PLANES\SLOT10\SpitIXc_01
PLANES\SLOT11\SpitIXc_01
PLANES\SLOT12\Spit14e_01
PLANES\SLOT13\Typh_01
PLANES\SLOT14\Temp_01
PLANES\SLOT15\MosqFBVI_01
PLANES\SLOT16\Bf109G2_01
PLANES\SLOT17\Bf109G6_01
PLANES\SLOT18\Bf109K4_01
PLANES\SLOT19\Bf109G14_01
PLANES\SLOT20\Bf110G2_01
PLANES\SLOT21\Me410_01
PLANES\SLOT22\FW190A_01
PLANES\SLOT23\FW190D9_01
PLANES\SLOT24\Me262A_01
PLANES\SLOT25\Ju88A_01
PLANES\SLOT26\Ta152H_01
PLANES\SLOT27\Ju87D_01
PLANES\SLOT28\FW190A_01
PLANES\SLOT29\V1_01

The actual file is named "PDir.set" and it is located in the "planeset2" folder which is in the ETO theatre folder.
When the 1.28e exe is directed to use Planeset2 in the ETO theatre then it reads this file.
Each line is the pathname that the exe follows to locate the skinfiles for the slot.
There is a corresponding "FMDir.set" file which the 1.28e exe reads to locate the flight data files for each slot.
The original files were created by the very first version of what you refer to as "my program".

This is what you get in the game:



"my program" loads nothing.
It creates/reads/edits "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files.
Each one is a set of 30 pathnames which allows the exe to find the files it needs to load.
You keep telling me that the pathnames are irrelevant, so I have been asking you to tell me how the "no pathname" system that you describe is supposed to work.

Look Tony.

I was trying to tell you what the user interface needed, as you already have a load of planes in folders spread across sets like ETO..... ,it would make sence to search them, and add to them. We afterall trying the build an aircraft repository, not a Dir thingy! The Dir sets are fine if you want to play a setup like Malta, but you have removed the fun aspect of EAW, as you have only recently rediscovered with your recent tests.

I think you'll find, no one cares how you load things into EAW, that is irrelevent, just as displaying long complex file addresses is. All you need is a simple interface which pushes out the files EAW needs to load and run the models selected.

I've spent more time than I care to looking at what you have already. The folders you already have, some are complete, and others are missing files, but it is not easy looking at a folder full of plane*.3DZ's, and the matching TPC, or BMP. No screenshots or readme's, other than a criptic file name, is all you have to go with, which is not very helpful, if you want to update files or edit them.

When I worked for GEC, I was constantly updating the stock control systems, to a point in 1990, we were almost running a paperless system, with the help of the companies computer programmer. I would lay out a report, or change to the site/stock situation reports, all of which were developed over several months, then had to be debugged, before the company took the programs on nation wide. But in all the time we worked together, we would only discuss the concept, and he would produce a program, based on what we had talked about. Sometimes it was a load of rubbish, and more than often it worked as invisaged, but we never talked code, even if it was only DOS!

Ray's whole objective was to have a repository of skin and flight model folders from which a user could build his own planesets.
To do this in EAW140 the user must create or edit "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files. There is no other way.

Previous versions of the software came in two forms.
The first handles a 'planes' folder structure like the one in Ralf's EAW 1.30 "Planes_ETO" folder
The second handles a 'planes' folder structure like the one in Ray's "SPAWPlanes" folder.

The new version handles any folder structure, so the path to any folder in the new "Planes_Inventory" folder can be found.

New folders can be added, folder names could be changed as long as it does not screw up existing "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files of which there are 23 pairs in the current folder.
JPG and text files can be added.

The user interface he uses to make the "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files must show the pathnames.

Well that was a waste of my time Tony, if you can't see the wood for the trees, I'd better get my chainsaw out!

Every thing needs simplifying. I keep saying you don't need the file addresses displayed.

What use is it? Really??

We're supposed to be having a discussion about how this is going to work but instead all we have is a bunch of bellyaching from one guy and then the other guy has to defend what he's done.

It in unproductive so please stop.

If you don't like what we're trying to do, that's fine but stop wasting our time.

OK Ray.

It seems Tony has his way of doing things, and he's programming it, so we get, what we get, and be happy with it!

A discussion is supposed to be an exchange of ideas, something which is not clearly happening.

I remember you agreed with me, the system we have if far from perfect, and difficult to learn.

You are sitting on the fence, no one else seems interested, and I get my head chopped off, because I argue my point.

I'll just carry on doing my thing, and let you guys carry on.

You aren't adding anything to the conversation. All you are doing is bellyaching and whining.

In fact, we should take this up at the GEN because it's getting embarrassing.

Goodbye Ray.

You two know what's best for everyone!

John you write rubbish and I keep having to challenge you because people might mistakenly believe that you are right

You do not play EAW and because of that you are still way out of date preferring to be stuck in the root folder mentality. You avoid getting up to date with the "set" system, and have the gall to tell people that it is difficult. It is not a new system, having been used with CDF.set and dir.set files in the 1.28c release, and the additional "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files used in 1.28e.

To understand the system all you need to know is:

1. "set" files are string files

2. "set" files are lists of pathnames that the eaw.exe follows to locate the files it needs.

3. A "Dir.set" file goes in the root folder. The first line in it it the path to a theatre folder such as "SPAW140". The remaining lines are the subfolders that the exe needs to look for files in. The last line in a NULL terminator.

4. Most theatres have "planeset" folders. A planeset folder will have "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files in it which the exe reads to locate the skin and FM files.

You make all these comments about software without ever having used it. This is ridiculous.
You have not added one useful idea to this discussion, given that the whole focus is to allow a player to make their own "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files, referencing folders in a central repository.
Of course players do not need to do that, but we are trying to cater for the ones that do.

According to you the exe only loads four planes?

It loads 30, the user offline selects four. In a big online game there may be 12 or more different planes in use.
In single mission mode random spawning can occur- there is a setting in the ini file to set the probabilities for allied and axis planes being randomly spawned.


Yes I am angry, because some of what you post here is factually incorrect and that puts me in a situation of having to repond.

Carry on then!

Let's see, by my count that's 12 times you've quit in a snit.

We're all weary of it.




Jel,

John has descended into troll territory so your just wasting your time. You have no need to defend what you're attempting to do.

I'll also point out that you wouldn't even have this aggravation if it weren't for me pushing the central inventory idea. So thanks for that.

Back on topic. I'm just about done with my other projects. Maybe by the end of this week I'll be ready to jump in on the new system so think about a tutorial.

I'm not quitting Guys.

I'll not give you the pleasure, and leave you two to run riot, not that your not doing that now.

You play games, making out I did not understand your overly complicated way of doing things. You wanted a store of models to select from, and that is what I was trying to explain. But you either can't, don't, or want to understand a simple concept, which intelligent people would understand, and be able to integrate, in part or whole.

Enjoy the game!

I've got the girls bedroom to tidy.

Again you are factually incorrect

We wanted the means by which a user could select from a store of models which was flexible enough to select from a store with any structure.

Ray and I have not been discussing the structure of the store itself at this point.

However, to make the software I created a store using existing planes folders, and named it "Aircraft_Inventory".
This morning I wrote a second program that searches the "Aircraft_Inventory" folder for skin or FM folders:



If you select one it is saved to the clipboard for use by the FM/PDirset file maker.

What ever you call it, I won't use it, or support it!

OK, do you need to create a set just to fly an off line intersept mission?

Say 2 aircraft types per side i bomber, 1 escort and possibly 2 interceptors?

Or,

Do you need to completely flesh out a folder?

It looks like the skins are in their own folders and selected from them. Do they all have an OAW type selection set with a 'Contents', jpg, and actual type description (Bf109 K, JG XX)?

Personally, for me the simpler the interface the better. That is why OAW was better for me than ECA. They did the same thing but OAW just seemed so much easier.

Oh well, just my bit here.

Mike, we WANT more input and questions like that so don't be shy.

There are the early days of a paradigm shift in the way EAW works. There will be stumbles and dead ends to be sure but that is no reason to abandon the concept.

We can make something unique in the flight sim world if we work together on this.

An entire community will be grateful if the naysayers will just STFU.

Hi Mike

This is how it works for me in the latest 140 folder which has a "Aircraft_Inventory" folder.

1. I make a folder named "IronMike" open it and make a folder in it named "Planeset1" in readiness.

2. I run the "Flexible PSMaker 2016V3.exe" which is today's version and navigate to the "Aircraft_Inventory" folder in both directory boxes:


3. To save time here I am only going to use the SPAW planes, but I could select any apart from the ETO which has new style FMs which cannot be mixed with old style:


Note that the skins are on the left and the FMs on the right

4. I single click on a skin and then a corresponding FM folder


5. I then click in the two blank columns in the grid. I will put this A20 in slot00 but it could go in any:


6. I fill all the slots by the same method:


Now it is time to save so I click the "Show read and save panel"

7. I navigate to the folders I created in readiness "IronMike\Planeset1" and click the "Save the PDir and FMDir.set files" button.



End of part 1

fait accompli as expected.

Part 2

In order to use it I need to create a "Dir.set" file so I run the "StrEdit2015.exe".
After clicking the "Make a Dir.Set" button I navigate to the "IronMike" folder:


Then I click "ADD"


Planesets are read automatically and do not need to be listed. So, I click on the "Planeset1" row to delete it:


Then I click on "Finalise" button.
It gives me a "Save" box so I save the "Dir.set" in the 140 folder and exit.
I then copy it and paste it in the "LongDirSets" folder, and re-name it as "IronMikeSpecial"

Sorry Mike but this little tutorial sequence for you has been disrupted for no other purpose than petty annoyance

Running the DSP I can select "IronMikeSpecial", planeset1 and "FLY!".









Because there is nothing else in the "IronMike" folder the default ETO tilemap and terrain are being used.

Ok, that's it. I'm referring this to the moderators.

Making this available:

The link in my signature gives you this:



The "140Multiplayer2016.exe" is a 7-zip self installer which generates the "140Multiplayer2016" folder we are already using online at GameRanger.
However, despite its name it is not just for online gaming, so I encourage offliners to install it too

It already contains the "Aircraft_Inventory" folder, so in order to follow the tutorial you need to download the "PSMakerKitLite" 7-zip and run it in the "140Multiplayer2016" folder.
It will add three programs to the folder, two of which I used in the tutorial, and the other being the new skin finder I made this morning.

As these are VB programs I have added the old OAWRT.exe for anyone getting a "runtime error". That program is another 7-zip, which creates a folder named "OAWRT" with a "setup.exe" in it. Running it does not install OAW, but it does install a number of Visual Basic runtime files and will hopefully fix any "runtime error" issues.
Hopefully it will not be needed but it is there just in case.

Jel

I don't see a link in your signature.

We've had this problem before. I think it may be one of my many blocker programs.

So, if I understanding this,

1) The planes sets stay in there appropriate folders (the mod folders) and just a text file is created to point the game to where they are in the folder structure?

OR

2) is the DSP actually copying/moving plane files to a new folder where the new planeset is used from?

OR

3) A new folder structure is used an all planes are in a central repository and the text file is created from that?


Just checking, I don't need a huge explanation, I been try to understand whats being posted but think I failed.

Mark,

There's not going to be any difficulty with guys asking for help or adding suggestions. This is not any easy thing to wrap you head around so I am encouraging you to continue to inquire about how and why it works a certain way.

The fact that you might not understand some function might actually help us clean up some of those functions to make a better program.

It happens all the time privately between Jel and I when he programs a new editor. Usually I don't get it the first, second or third time ( or fourth ) but my questions help him develop better versions.

OTOH, we will discourage or better yet, completely ignore the kind of antics exhibited by John.

So fire away.

Oh dear Ray, what have I done to upset you?

Mark

In principle this is nothing different to what has been around since 1.28e which was released with a "planes" folder containing skin folders and FM folders.
In 1.28e there was an "ETO_01" folder which contained four planesets. In each of these was a "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" file, each with 30 lines with the pathnames to the skin and FM folders for each slot.

EAW does not read "txt" files to get the text it needs, hence the "set" files have the same structure as "str" files, but with the "set" extender, as they are sets in the true sense.

1.28e was released with a "DirSetPicker" and a "DirSets" folder which the DirSetPicker read to display the available "Dir.set" files.
These files are re-named "Dir.set" files and when one is selected it is copied from the "DirSets" folder and pasted into the root folder as "Dir.set".
If the loaded "Dir.set" file referenced the "ETO_01" folder then the material inside it would be used. The planeset number was stored in the "eaw.ini" file, and could be changed on the configuration screen.
If it was set at "2" then the "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files inside the "planeset2" folder would be read by the 1.28e exe to locate the skins and FM data when the exe was launched.
I wrote the software that Ralf used to create the original "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files.

What has happened since is that additional 'planes' folders have been assembled, such as "SPAW_Planes".
Folders in these 'planes' folders are referenced by "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" in planesets folders located in theatre folders.
The "DirSetPicker" has been re-worked to do more things such as selecting an exe, and setting the planeset, but essentially the system introduced in 1.28e is still running.

This most recent development is a result of Ray's idea to have a central repository.
Those separate 'planes' folders are now all inside the "Planes_Inventory" folder, and the utility that Ralf originally used has been updated so that it can handle the different folder structures inside the "Planes_Inventory" folder.

It has been released so that people who want to try it can make their own planesets containing "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files which reference folders in the "Planes_Inventory" folder.

So when they have done the equivalent of what I did in the 'tutorial' posts in this thread, they can run the DSP, select their personally created theatre, select the planeset(s) that they made and fly their creations

It is slot free, but I usually stick to the original EAW pattern with allied planes in the first half and axis planes in the second half.

@Rotton50, I understand what your saying. I'm just surprised to see a project in awhile done so publicly, which is good.


@MrJelly, oh man long explanation about the old system that your still apparently using.
Looking at the Download now and the files and folder structure: So all the planes are 'physically' moved to the inventory folder now...then supporting files are still in the PlaneSet folders for each mod, including the instructions to load planes from the Inventory folder?

Do the planes get 'physically' copied back into the the addon/mod folder when in use or does the DSP just modify the instructions in the addons PlaneSet folder , pointing to the plane inventory, ...?

eh. I'm having a hard time asking these technical questions at the moment with the correct terms, so I may be injecting confusion, ha, yikes!


EDIT: Do you guys have Pacific Fighters/IL2? There is a quick mission setup allows you to select aircraft I think in the way you guys are putting this together. I can provide a screen shot of the menu system they used in PF. But I think the one your making for EAW make be more flexible. It may help you perfect your menu system out?

Ok, Jel I D/L'd the files but before I unpack them I need to know how they are going to affect my existing 1.4 set ups. Don't want to lose mega data to a misplaced set up.

Ray:
The installer creates a standalone "140Multiplayerl2016" folder with everything in it. It is not a replacement and does not overwrite anything.

Mark:
The original EAW had 30 aircraft. The exe was programmed to look for the files it needed in the CDF files. For example it was programmed to look for "flt" files in the "FLT.CDF" file. The pathnames to the CDF files were hard coded in the exe.
When it ran, the user was able to select a fighter, and then set up a mission with another friendly plane and two enemy planes.

In the new system only two files are ever moved by the DSP



1. If I were to click on "Default Test" then the "Default Test" file in the "LongDirSets" folder is read and copied into the root folder as "Dir.set".
2. If I were to click on "140V86OldMap.exe" then the "140V86OldMap.exe" file in the "EAW Versions" folder is read and copied into the root folder as "eaw.exe"

In the settings shown the exe would find a "Dir.set" file in the root folder and read the paths it.
This would direct it to look in the "IronMikeSpecial" folder for the material it needs.
Looking in that folder the exe would find a "planeset1" folder, and as the planeset number is set to 1 the exe looks in it. It will find the "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files, which it reads to get the pathnames to the folders containing the skin and FM data files for each of the 30 slots.

This is a text dump of the PDir.set file:

Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_A-20G
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_A-36A
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW45F7F-2
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_SBD-5
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_P-61B
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_P40E
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\RAAFB-25 Mitchell
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_PB4Y
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_P38F
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Beaufighter
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_F4u-1
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_F6F-3
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_MB-3MkIIb
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_SpitVc
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\140SpitFloat
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_PBJ-1H
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_A6m2
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-43 III
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_A6m3
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-44 IIb
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-45 I
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-61 Ia
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-64 Ia
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-88 Ia
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_Ki-96 I
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_B5N2
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_D3a
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\SPAW_G4M2
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\NewFT-A6M2-N Rufe
Aircraft_Inventory\SPAWPlanes\Skins\NewFT-E13_A Jake

For any files that it needs and cannot find, it is programmed to look in the "savedata" folder for the default ones.


To compare the previous system with the new one this is a previous 140 folder:


It had several 'planes' folders in it. In the latest version all the planes folders have been moved into the "Aircraft_Inventory" folder.
The old "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files have been edited using the planeset making utility by loading them, hitting the Add "Aircraft_Inventory\" button and re-saving them. It took about 10 minutes to do them all.