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#4252209 - 04/23/16 03:23 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Aeronautico Offline
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Sorry I have not read the thread but... what do have campaign designers to do with coders and 3D, texture artists? I would think campaign design detracts not a single bit to any other effort, when the missions/campaign are dealt with: it keeps busy those who do that for a job and give customers more options, which is the merrier (no comment though on this last P-51 GTA campaign but somebody might like it and nobody's forced to buy it). Probably I am just being naive: please tell me why.


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#4252210 - 04/23/16 03:27 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Aeronautico]  
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Originally Posted By: Aeronautico
Sorry I have not read the thread but... what do have campaign designers to do with coders and 3D, texture artists? I would think campaign design detracts not a single bit to any other effort, when the missions/campaign are dealt with: it keeps busy those who do that for job and give customers more options, which is the merrier (no comment though on this last P-51 GTA campaign but we're not forced to buy it are we)? Probably I am just being naive: please tell me why.


But feelings! wink

#4252232 - 04/23/16 04:30 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Aeronautico]  
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Originally Posted By: Aeronautico
I would think campaign design detracts not a single bit to any other effort

Probably I am just being naive: please tell me why.



Have a look through the thread, ED are creating patches to support some of these campaigns (one of the campaigns had a dedicated patch just for that campaign) and we'd like to think they are actually doing some testing on the campaigns too and may well have to make some tweaks etc before they are released. There will undoubtedly be additional effort into getting it out of the door with a valid installer etc.

Now what happens when a DCS World patch breaks a campaign.....is the original campaign author going to make the necessary tweaks and fixes? Probably not, it will most likely be ED that does that and now multiply it by how many campaigns are out there. What happens when the dev branches get merged......all the campaigns have to be tested again, potentially more integration and validation work required.

And so forth.....it's certainly not the case that there isn't any effort on ED's part. But, not to worry...it's providing additional funds for all the extra work they give themselves by being totally incompetent in many other areas.


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#4252260 - 04/23/16 06:22 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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It does seem like the campaigns aren't really striving for high quality. I have no problem with fictional themes, but that certainly doesn't come off as authentic. I have a feeling the briefings and overall quality might not be there either. And there are still only a few WWII planes out there. What exactly will you do in the campaign?

My main concern though is a lot of basic features that would/might have received an update are now going to become paid DLC. Back with Black Shark and A-10C we received some updates with the aircraft. With DCS World you simply get plane modules, which is fine. Rather than tying engine/game improvements into an aircraft purchase, they can now be deployed separately. But now it seems like a lot of these upgrades are becoming paid DLC. The value per purchase is getting worse and the updates increasingly placed behind a pay wall.

#4252263 - 04/23/16 06:35 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
But now it seems like a lot of these upgrades are becoming paid DLC.


Like what? Is there an example that leads you to believe that? Did you have to pay anything for, say, the move from dx9 to dx11? What about the sound engine updates? Not sure i see any evidence supporting your opinion.

Last edited by Sobek; 04/23/16 06:37 PM.
#4252273 - 04/23/16 07:04 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Is there any news on the carrier that was mentioned last year? That sounded very much like payware DLC possibly supporting the F18 - given the way everything is seemingly heading in that direction I'd be very surprised to see ED putting additional effort into something that doesn't really need it only to release for free on the assumption that the F18 will actually come with a naval platform to launch/land on anyway.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4252283 - 04/23/16 08:09 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek

Like what? Is there an example that leads you to believe that? Did you have to pay anything for, say, the move from dx9 to dx11? What about the sound engine updates? Not sure i see any evidence supporting your opinion.


Black Shark 1 to 2 comes to mind. I bought BS1 a little late and then BS2 came out with virtually no warning that they were working on it. It was pretty smart though...if folks like me knew BS2 was coming out, I might of held off buying BS1. Of course BS2 made the module have the ability to plug into the DCS world and did have some bug fixes to BS1.

Since this is a thread about campaigns...I imagine releasing Nevada with no campaigns except available in DLC form could be an example?


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#4252296 - 04/23/16 09:11 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Is there any news on the carrier that was mentioned last year? That sounded very much like payware DLC possibly supporting the F18 - given the way everything is seemingly heading in that direction I'd be very surprised to see ED putting additional effort into something that doesn't really need it only to release for free on the assumption that the F18 will actually come with a naval platform to launch/land on anyway.


There was only ever talk of doing a DLC higher poly model and including the ability to walk around the carrier. Never heard about "the carrier" being exclusively DLC.

Last edited by Sobek; 04/23/16 09:14 PM.
#4252297 - 04/23/16 09:13 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Since this is a thread about campaigns...I imagine releasing Nevada with no campaigns except available in DLC form could be an example?


It should be noted though that all modules tend not have their campaigns added until the product leaves Beta.

Nate

#4252298 - 04/23/16 09:17 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Black Shark 1 to 2 comes to mind. I bought BS1 a little late and then BS2 came out with virtually no warning that they were working on it. It was pretty smart though...if folks like me knew BS2 was coming out, I might of held off buying BS1. Of course BS2 made the module have the ability to plug into the DCS world and did have some bug fixes to BS1.


Funny, that somewhates foils Floggers argument. Though his point was with regard to DCS World, and by implication so was mine.

#4252403 - 04/24/16 09:06 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Since this is a thread about campaigns...I imagine releasing Nevada with no campaigns except available in DLC form could be an example?


Since there are so many aircraft available to fly I wonder what the reaction would be if some aircraft you don't own got a campaign with the purchase of a terrain. Someone has got to lose out either by not owning an aircraft or disinterest in it.

#4252529 - 04/24/16 06:43 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
But now it seems like a lot of these upgrades are becoming paid DLC.


Like what? Is there an example that leads you to believe that? Did you have to pay anything for, say, the move from dx9 to dx11? What about the sound engine updates? Not sure i see any evidence supporting your opinion.


Textures and aircraft carriers come to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if more upgrades become payware.

#4252701 - 04/25/16 05:13 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
Textures and aircraft carriers come to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if more upgrades become payware.


That's some bonus features for the carrier, not the carrier itself. And textures, well, that's just textures. Buying or not buying into that makes no difference to what missions you are able to join.

#4252864 - 04/25/16 06:41 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
Textures and aircraft carriers come to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if more upgrades become payware.


That's some bonus features for the carrier, not the carrier itself. And textures, well, that's just textures. Buying or not buying into that makes no difference to what missions you are able to join.


ED has yet to confirm if everyone will get enhanced aircraft carrier assets or if we will be stuck with the same ones from 2003 (or earlier) that we've paid for multiple times now. And upgrades are just upgrades and you don't need them? Fair enough, but you're proving my point. By your logic the new weather effects/engine in development can be payware to as long as the original version is free. Where does it end? AI units? New countries? Mission editor changes? Advanced AI behavior changes?

Being able to join a server has little to nothing to do with the topic at hand. I don't own an M2000C, and if I join a server with only M2000Cs I won't be able to play regardless. Same with terrian. You're essentially saying upgrades should be withheld and sold as payware, but aircraft and terrian modules are bad because not everyone can join the same server. That doesn't make any sense to me.

The original concept of DCS World was a nice one. One base game that gets upgraded while you buy new aircraft, terrian and campaigns. Fair enough. Aircraft (and even terrian) are full price titles in themselves. We'd get gradual updates while paying a bit more for modules. But now we're being charged for various upgrades on top of that and will have to juggle draconian DRM for an abundance of things including texture files. If they're going that route then lower the price of the modules.

The original concept sounded great, but I'm not so sure I like where it is headed.

#4253081 - 04/26/16 09:35 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
And textures, well, that's just textures.


If we're talking about the updated textures to Georgia than it could cause a problem in MP (same with the free texture mods that people have created) because I could be seeing a brown field but while trying to talk on another ACFT they are seeing a yellow field making the talk on using geo references difficult if not impossible. In the 476th we highly frown upon (but don't restrict) the use of different ground texture mods.

As to the carrier, if it does end up being payware to even get the new model that could cause issues as well in MP. Someone creates a mission using the new model, aircraft spawn locations most likely won't be the same as the free carrier so someone who doesn't have the payware wouldn't be able to use the same carrier.

We'll see, I too am not a fan of the "pay for everything" philosophy that seems to be happening but for me it will just mean I don't purchase as many products as I have in the past and hopefully it won't degrade the MP experience much because with out MP I wouldn't be flying DCS at all, I just don't enjoy SP.

Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
The original concept sounded great, but I'm not so sure I like where it is headed.


Completely agree.

#4253127 - 04/26/16 12:59 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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It does seem like that while in the past you'd get "a sim" for your money that included a plane (or more), a theater (or more), AI non-flyables, ground units (targets), and so on that would be new/remade/refreshed with every release, we're now in the worst possible outcome of a modular design.

For literally decades, since Falcon 3.0, the dream of a modular flight sim has been attempted and collapsed many times. ED finally did it...and it's not turned out the way we hoped at all. Development times measured with multiple calendars for just a plane, while other areas languish for years and years. frown There's no incentive to make a new terrain because the new plane plugs into it. Would people have bought successive Il-2 sims if each one used the same maps as the 2001 release?

Personally, I never cared for half the stuff they bothered to model. Radios? TACAN/DME/VOR? Fine tuning fusing options?
While I appreciate the effort that went into the Ka-50, A-10C, Mig-21bis, and others, I find in all cases they spent considerable time on features I will never even touch. The Su-25T is pretty much as far as I need them to go, with the addition of a clickable cockpit. So it's great work, I just think only a fraction of their customers are actually utilizing it.

At this point, I wish all these modules would just be made to FC3 levels with a clickable cockpit and then have them move on to the next FC3-level plane or helo. If everything was limited to that, how many more would we have right now that would likely be in a better state since it's not as hard to make the planes work properly when you're only modeling the absolutely necessary systems?

Since DCS' first release 8 years ago progress has been what I would describe as glacial all to satisfy the system modeling needs to the minority of their customers. Most of us want a great plane that flies and fights accurately against other great planes but have little to no interest in taking week-long courses to learn how to reroute fuel flow when a flak hit takes out the starboard pump, activate emergency oxygen with the cabin decompression, and so on.


Forget a $60 Mirage 2000 that lets me do things only a real 2k pilot would know had to be done, I'd be perfectly happy with an endless parade of $30 FC3-level planes like the Mirage, Falcon, Tomcat, Viggen, Apache, and so on that can get done in a year. Then, if demand is there, retrofit the DCS level systems into them later as paid DLC. Meanwhile, we could have been flying them without that.




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#4253138 - 04/26/16 01:17 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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JM nailed it!!

#4253155 - 04/26/16 02:36 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I can't really add much to what JM has said. The revenue from FC level aircraft (with clickable pits) would dwarf the current income of the "high fidelity" betas that are in development for years. There would be more choice, more players and It would also negate the need to charge the customer for every little upgrade.
Life simply doesn't allow me the time needed to learn these aircraft systems.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4253160 - 04/26/16 02:55 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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While I agree they'd make more money that way, there are still a few of us who want the hi-fi simulator (i.e.: study sim). Preferably the plane would be truly dual-role, having A-G radar. Along with a dynamic campaign.

So basically Falcon 4.0 in DCS clothing. And while I'm dreaming I'd like a pony...

#4253174 - 04/26/16 03:42 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign? - is this the new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Yeah, I prefer study level sims by far. Streamlining their development + introducing a DC + stop being greedy control freaks about 3rd party devs (would've been nice to have a Super Hornet, but nooooooope) would probably fix a lot. Cut the WW2 and early Cold war crap, you've yet to finish the modern environment. And tell the 3rd party devs to follow suit, nothing from that side of roughly 1970. That would certainly increase the number of modern modules.

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