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#4244557 - 03/30/16 03:44 AM Queston for Ray  
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MrJelly Offline
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Taking this discussion away from Mike's thread

Originally Posted By: Rotton50
Jel,

Ok, as you've shown, it doesn't take much to move plane sets around and I like the idea of dropping different planes into different scenarios but we're still limited to entire plane sets.
How hard would it be to institute individual plane picking?


Can you elaborate with a theoretical example?
Would it involve the use of a shorter equivalent of the "PDir.set" and "FMDir.set" files?

If so, I have tried that, and had some eight plane set-ups working.
There are problems though.
One is when squad files reference planes in what is now an empty slot.
Another sometimes even occurs in a full planeset.
You set a single mission to do an intercept, and 1945 is the year displayed. You want to change it back to 1943, which you could do by left clicking on the year to make it 1940, then again for 1943.
A CTD occurs when there is no enemy bomber dated 1940 or earlier in the planeset to intercept.

wink


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#4244573 - 03/30/16 07:09 AM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Originally Posted By: iron mike


I for one (because of my skins) tend toward the 1.2X exes. I really don't have the time to fly on line and feel left out of the most recent developemenmts of 1.4. To me the whole reason for the lastest work is as a base for continued programming and modders be damned.



What is your problem with 140? Because you do not do it I and other people convert your skins for you and we use them. I was actually thinking about getting your converted skins to Sandbagger's in line with a post I made at the Gen, but now I have little enthusiasm to go ahead with that.

Now, I did some more programming this morning, not for me but to check possibilities as a response to Ray's request.

In the exe I made the number of plane types was reduced from 30 to 9 in terms of just selecting a fighter, an attack plane and a bomber for US, RAF and Axis.

Then I made a new planeset using the Mediterranean aircraft:

I used the "Fill blanks" button after entering the first "Dummies" and saved the new planeset


Loaded the exe and the planeset





Some of the bombers have "non-flyable" set in the FM so they do not appear for selection





I was able to fly several missions with no problem smile


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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4244618 - 03/30/16 11:33 AM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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I'll see if I can express what the idea was.

I envision a picker programs that works just like the one we have now but with one other option and that would be a selection in the "Planesets and Aircraft" window that says "player selected planeset".

If that option is picked the user would see another window ( maybe a pop-up) that shows all the aircraft that came with that particular download plus any that the user added on their own.

Of course, this would require all the models ( Skins and FM's) to be in one central sub-folder and all of the planesets would have to be re-written to point to that folder rather than the sub-folders containing the various scenarios.

We might have to have an "error stop" in there. What I mean is that the picker program would have to force the player to select 30 planes ( although some of them could be the same plane, I suppose ) to avoid some CTD's that occur when the game can't find some needed info.

As for the year and bomber CTD problems, I don't think that's a deal breaker either, just some creative thinking to overcome. There might need to be another couple of "error stops" in there to make sure at least one bomber was selected and that all the years are available.

A fair amount of work but not insurmountable and it would only have to be done once. From that point on all new models get added to the one folder which also speaks to my earlier point that 1.4 has already become the default repository for the latest models.

I know that we have a problem with the old vs new FM's which we'd have to figure out. We also have a few different FM versions of the same plane but if the community trusts my ability to cobble together acceptable FM's then I would use my judgement as to which FM is best for that particular plane.

What I'm saying is that I would take on the scut work of the project if Jel would figure out the programming.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4244681 - 03/30/16 02:33 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Hi Guys,

All too technical for me but I appreciate the time and effort you are all taking to improve the game. I can see both points of view and have no wish to stir things up as the subject is already getting a bit over-heated. I must however confess that I am no longer playing EAW, mainly because of family problems, but also because the frequent changes all seem a bit complicated for a computer simpleton like me. Yes I could continue with the old "base" versions in the 1.2 series but is seems a shame to miss out on the enhanced target list for example, which must have taken a lot of effort to produce. Perhaps there is a case for a "super" version of the 1.2 game, or does it already exist and I am just too confused to realise it?

Whatever the case, I realise it can be frustrating for all concerned when they spend a lot of time and creative energy on something only to find that others seem to have different expectations. Sometimes comments are not perhaps worded as tactfully as they can be but this is I find often the case with people of either artistic or scientific bent who can get a little caught up in their work. I am reminded of something in Arthur C Clark's book involving the development of Radar (can't remember its name - possibly "Flight Path") - a bunch of scientists are supposedly in a bomber carrying out a test and not getting the results they wanted so one is reputed to call out "I say pilot, could you do that again at 50mph upside down" or something similar. Sometimes we all need to chill a little and look at the wider picture. To survive the forum needs a mix of people with differing views so as Sandbagger says, lets try not to fall out.

Cheers

Pete


With increasing age should come wisdom and tolerance, but as the saying goes, "there is no fool like an old fool" as I prove regularly!

#4244686 - 03/30/16 02:56 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Col. Gibbon Offline
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Nobody is falling out Peter, just is seems to me, nobody listens.

This thread is proof of that.

More changes! screwy

EAW used to be an easy game to tinker with, now you need a doctorate in computer sciences. {OK maybe a bit OTT, but you get my drift]. biggrin


Supports EAW 1.29.exe, Drop in and Play Technology. wink

1.29 download
#4244714 - 03/30/16 04:10 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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There's a difference between not listening and choosing not to take action after giving the request due consideration.

Jel's been damn good about listening and working to improve the game. In fact he's probably his own worst enemy by fulfilling so many requests and suggestions so quickly.

That said, Jel can confirm that I've been seriously frustrated with the new systems included in the 1.4 version of the game. However the improvements in game play and flexibility with regard to scenarios are well worth it. Not to mention that once you get used to the system, modding is no more difficult than in the past.

The downside to all the improvements is that they come from one guy so that there is a constant stream of small upgrades rather than a block of them.

If I were to make one suggestion to Jel is that he not drop new developments on us on a continual basis which would give us a chance to get caught up. For a start, I'd say once a month would be plenty.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4244722 - 03/30/16 04:52 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Col. Gibbon Offline
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Ray, if there was one exe every year it would be better. biggrin

I don't decry what Tony has done for EAW, but he seems to be a marathon man, where as I'm a snail!

Unlike you, who has stuck with these changes. I lost interest, when the slotless system came in, which made no sense at all to me, and still doesn't. I lost all the references to my models and skins from that point on.

With the Fw200 for instance. I will build it for the He111 slot, and will use all the new 3dz's, and it will be released in the old way, on Sandbagger's.

I already have loads of usless Tmods posted on my site, so a few more aircraft should not worry anyone. smile

I said on here once, that every exe change would take months, if not years to be fully used. Cast your mind back to all the new action codes that were added to the exe, and how many were actually used? 1 or 2 at best. Most of them like flaps need building into the model from scratch, which is not always easy to do.

That is just one case in point. Nothing to get uptight about, but a symptom of not letting things bed, in before we moved on to the next exe.

smile




Supports EAW 1.29.exe, Drop in and Play Technology. wink

1.29 download
#4244740 - 03/30/16 06:00 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: Col. Gibbon]  
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iron mike Offline
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Jel,

I am not a programmer. The simple conversion programs you have made (3dz maker, pcx/tpc maker etc.) have been a godsend. So, I find the 1.4 converter a bit complex. Thank you for all you have done for me and everyone else.
I'[ll take a peak at the Gen later and see what is what.

yep

#4244769 - 03/30/16 07:56 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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The slotless system makes perfect sense once you see the overall picture.

There are two big advantages:

One is that once there are a load of planes in inventory a modder can build a set with minimal effort. No slot conversion program is necessary. You just write a text file with a list of planes and convert it to a string file for the picker program.

Boom, done!

The other advantage speaks directly to you and I, the last two 3dz builders.

With the slotless system you can drop a file into a folder without having to both rename the file and hexedit the internal header to point to a TPC file with a slotted name. All the 3dz files have names like PLANEA.3dz or PLANEY.3dz and texture files have names like PLANEAEX.TPC or PLANEY.TPC.

If you try the system out you will see that it is superior but this is the last time I'm going to bring it up. The deal is, no more cajoling to try it by pro slotless guys and no complaining from anti-slotless guys about why it sucks. You want to make slotted planes that's perfectly OK, converting them to slotless is not that big a deal.

But speaking of that, Mike, You are correct, the slot converter is NOT user friendly and requires work. I hope that at some point Jel makes a version that is as easy to use as the old MogProg program. Knowing his propensity for LISTENING to the community I'm confident that he will re-visit it at some point.

Jel, if you're LISTENING, make the new program work just like the old program, forget all the folder stuff, just put the files for conversion in a work folder and convert 'em right there.

#4244985 - 03/31/16 01:49 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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MrJelly Offline
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I cannot make it any simpler, but I can run through the steps

For this example I am going to convert a folder of Russian 1.28 skins.

I have set up a working folder:


The 129Russia_Planes has 30 folders in it:


The A-20 Havoc folder has a set of 1.28 skinfiles in it, all "PP38J....":

This is not always the case, there can be rogue files, text files, jpg files etc, but the majority will have the same plane code.

I have copied all 30 folders and pasted them into the previously empty "ToBeConverted" folder:

The files in this folder are the ones which will be converted.

1. Run the exe and complete step 1 by double clicking on the "ToBeConverted" folder.
Here I have chosen not to include the default skins. Sometimes I do the whole thing twice, the second time with the default skins included.
2. Then click on "2. Click to list the folders...":

The folders are listed in the big panel but none are selected.

3. Select the top one by clicking on it in the big panel:

A list of 3dz files has appeared. They are all "PP38J" but that is not necessarily the case, because a rogue file from another slot may be present. "PP38J" is obviously the correct plane code for this folder.

4. Click on any of the "PP38J" files (I usually pick the first one) to confirm the plane code.
Doing this converts the skin in the background, the next folder is automatically selected, and a new list of 3dz files ("PB26A") appears:


At this point I clicked on "PB26A" and worked my way down the list to the last item:


One more click on "PSP09" completed the task:


Checking the A-20 folder everything has been renamed correctly:


All 30 folders are ready for use with EAW140.
I honestly cannot see a way of making it simpler smile

"Include default skins"

Some 1.2 - 1.29 skins are incomplete and rely on default files in the 3D.CDF.
If this option had been checked then copies of the 1.04 version of the P38J skin files would have been made and pasted in the "A-20 Havoc" folder. When the conversion occurs most if not all of them would have been overwritten.
Any missing ones would remain there, so you have a complete set of files.

wink Jel


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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4244987 - 03/31/16 02:00 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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MrJelly Offline
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New exes

I have no plans to make and release any unless bugs appear in 140V86.
However, I am happy to continue experiments in line with Ray's request, and could make some private versions for him to try.


AO has found a problem with folder release that is not exe related, but a problem with a "flt" file. Having these thing out there allow bugs to be found- I cannot just sit here testing everything by myself.

wink


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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4244992 - 03/31/16 02:06 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: Col. Gibbon]  
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MrJelly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Col. Gibbon
Nobody is falling out Peter, just is seems to me, nobody listens.

This thread is proof of that.

More changes! screwy

EAW used to be an easy game to tinker with, now you need a doctorate in computer sciences. {OK maybe a bit OTT, but you get my drift]. biggrin


Another sad misinformed comment frown

Ray raised the issue of a user being able to select a few planes that he or she wants to use instead of having to make a full planeset of 30 planes. So I investigated the possibility of doing this via the exe, made two test versions, one using 12 aircraft and one using nine to see if they work. They did, and I reported it smile


Fly EAW online at GameRanger: GameRanger Site

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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4245013 - 03/31/16 02:49 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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I was able to get the Mogprog program to do what we need.

I edited the last plane code in the text file that comes with the Mogprog program from V1V1 to LANE.

Boom, file names converted and the pcx texture pointers inside the TPC files also changed.

So guys, if you're use Mogprog you can edit this yourselves and you're good to go for converting to 1.4 format.

Be aware that there might be a few odd ball files that cause a problem but I'd say at least 95% of the time you will be just fine using this.

Oh and it doesn't convert the file names of anything but 3dz files and the TPC files so if you put a VGC_****.dat file in the mix you'll have to manually edit the name to VGCplane.dat.

#4245017 - 03/31/16 03:08 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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Back to the picker question.

You showed it works, what's next?


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4245027 - 03/31/16 03:34 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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When I wrote that I saw it in the context of somebody using the program and doing the steps.
Mogprog converts a single folder with a few files in it. It does not cater for multiskins with 3-400 files in a single folder, or converting 30 or more folders in a 1.28 style "planes" folder in a matter of seconds.

Try it again with my folders. There is a link here:140 Converter


Running it will create the same working folder. Once you have it do this:

1. Open the "129Russia_Planes" folder, select all to copy the folders, then paste them in the currently empty "ToBeConverted" folder.

2. Run the program and double click the "ToBeConverted" folder in the directory box.

3. Click the "2. Click to list the folders..." button underneath the "Include default skins" checkbox.

4. Click the top line in the big panel on the right which should read ".....\SkinConvert 128-140\ToBeConverted\A-20 Havoc"

5. Click on the "pp38jb.3dz" file at the top of the list of 3dz files which appeared when you did step 4, (or any in that list that start with "pp38j").

6. Now click on the "PB26AF.3DZ" file which is now at the top of the list of 3dz files as a result of your doing step 5.

Carry on clicking on the top line of the 3dz files list until it disappears after converting the Yak9D.

Check the folders in the "ToBeConverted" folder. You will see the names have been converted to "Plane...". You will not see the headers which have also been converted.

wink





Fly EAW online at GameRanger: GameRanger Site

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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4245045 - 03/31/16 04:34 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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Rotton50  Offline
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I will amend my statement to reflect my personal needs only.

Since I don't do multi-skins I have no use for the complexity that comes with them.

All I want I can now get from MogProg.

What's nice about my discovery is that others can now choose between two programs based on the type of work they plan to do.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4245059 - 03/31/16 05:14 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: Rotton50]  
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Ray,

Mr. Jelly made the creation of multi-skins very simple for me. He created "Headshow" that lists each 3dz and the pcx that they point to. Then he created a multi-maker that edits and produces the necessary 3dzs for an unlimited amount of aircraft within a squadron. It also will renumber and make any number of clones from a skin set (read .tras etc). The first units were edited one 3dez at a time. Take a look back at the Gen for a reminder of the eary MS days. So, IMHO, the hard part is the model which takes someone elses mojo to create. I rename the pcx's when I save the finished product. It is usually only 3 of keystrokes to do so. (Ex: P110CTex.PCX to P110C01TX.pcx). The hard part and most enjoyable part is the research for the skins. Thankfully, I have had the help of Peter Booth and FranZee in collaboration with me. The squadron sets are the result of team work, and I am thankful for everyone incolved from Tony, Peter, Roland, yourself, and, John. I could not do them without all y'all.

You can take or leave MS units, if you only want one skin all you need to do is copy the first file set from the squadron and discard the rest. They are not manditory. I like them since my rig allows me to fly with all graphics maxed, d3d and 4 plus squadrons zipping around at the same time. The major draw back is that is does take a bit of time to load. Since I fly alone it doesn't matter to me. In online play I used at least 2 full units. But, I haven't been online for over a year and a half so I don't know how they effect play there now.

So, perhaps we see the complexity issue differently. I don't mind the difference of opinion. It makes things interesting. Just keep making mod and models.

IM

#4245067 - 03/31/16 05:23 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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MrJelly Offline
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Will one or both of you please install the working folder from the link in my previous post and follow the instructions in it.
I really want to know if you find it difficult to use, because I really think that it is very simple to use.

wink


Fly EAW online at GameRanger: GameRanger Site

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UAW 160 downloads
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Mark Twain: I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.

I am now of an age at which I no longer need to suffer fools gladly
#4245072 - 03/31/16 05:27 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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iron mike Offline
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Will do.

Got it. Norton (as usual says "requires attention") but it is easy to change to trusted. I'll dive in tonight my time.

Last edited by iron mike; 03/31/16 05:33 PM.
#4245082 - 03/31/16 05:52 PM Re: Queston for Ray [Re: MrJelly]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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Rotton50  Offline
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I'm glad Mike is doing that as I have had to switch gears a bit too often recently.

I'd like to finish the biplanes and then, depending on the final outcome of my suggestion for central aircraft inventory I may be up to my ears in folder rewrites.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
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