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#4235633 - 03/02/16 09:13 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Cat]  
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Snailman Offline
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Hello!!

I'm new to this forum.. I'm not sure this is the topic to ask such questions. I am developing add-ons to another simulator and I found myself in a dead end street with several aspects of the SAM systems.

I would be grateful if someone could give me answer to these problems I encountered. Mostly difficulties caused the lack of data and to some point the outdated software code limitations which we cannot change, though.

1. Missile lifetime. I could not find any data on SA-2 missile family, not even in original russian manuals. In SAM Simulator I measured 45-50sec for Dvina and 60-65 sec for Volkhov. This is the time they reached max range and disappeared. Field manual says that the self-destructor activates at 81 +-5sec. But at the same time it also writes the autopilot deactivates when the rocket engine shuts down. So, for how much time the missile is active then?

2. Connected to the previous problem, I don't know for how long the sustainer is active. Some sources say, 3 sec for booster + 20-22s for sustainer. But that's just 25 sec, and then how the missile stays active...? If it's about the non-passive capable variants. The original manual says, 3-4.5sec booster time + two types of engine program, one of which is 24 sec at full power (3500) for gaining altitude, then it switches to thrust 2000 for the rest of the flight. But still not mentioned for how long... 4 + 24 + ???

3. Booster separation parts. I could not find reliable drawings or description on how the booster separates from the second stage. There is a gap between the booster and the second stage. Most sources including SAM Sim manual shows that the booster stage starts from there. But some photos show the last section of the second stage (that conical part) also separates with the booster! On missile assembly videos the booster does not contain that part, the crew attaches the booster with it's four legs onto the end of the missile (to that particular conical section)... I will post pictures later, I think I was unclear here... I'm at work now(

Thanks for the help to all of you.

edit: Some nice pics for you, in return)







Last edited by Snailman; 03/02/16 11:27 AM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4235675 - 03/02/16 01:20 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Cat]  
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1, Download manuals of the SAMSIM, it describes SAM types.
2, SA-2 means several types of SAM systems in reality. Lets decide first what system are you talking about.
3, As all systems had several types of missiles, lets decide what missile type are you talking about.
4, More advanced ones had different engine modes, against different target elevations. (so engine working time can vary)

If you answer the above, than I can provide you with info.


Last edited by Hpasp; 03/02/16 01:22 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4235750 - 03/02/16 04:30 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Thanks for helping!
I read all the manuals already, and the original russians too. These information are absent (or contradictory).
I need info on all the missiles of SA-2 family, at least the main ones regarding flight characteristics, preparation time shortening is not a factor in our game.
Namely 1D, 11D (DS,DM), 13D, 20D (DP, DS), 5Ya23

But, I'm afraid later I might need the same info on other SAM systems too ((( Currently we care with the SA-2 this time.

While I was writing, I remembered, the other missing info is minimal altitude. Here, also several contradictions about minimal altitude. In what meaning was if minimal... a limitation of the Fan Song radar or the missile itself?

#4235802 - 03/02/16 06:39 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Snailman]  
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SA-2 is not a family, but 4 main different SAM systems, the US mixed due to poor reconnaissance.

What time period and region is your SIM simulates? (to find out the possible system and missile type)
I doubt that all versions (some were never exported, some to just limited countries) are needed.

Minimal altitude is described in the SAMSIM manual for each system.

Or if you want to dig out the real (not contradictory) data by yourself, I propose to look around here:
http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/03/16 12:54 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4236325 - 03/04/16 11:06 AM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Thanks for the site links. Good info especially on the S-125.

Meanwhile my russian friend sent me two tables, which are very useful but still missing the second stage operating time for the Dyesna and Volkhov missiles. And there is no data on the 1D but we can assume the similarities to the 11D..




The second table is about the system capabilities... it is very poor quality though(




Can you please tell if these match your data? Can you tell me the values of 1D missile if they are differend from the 11D, and the missing (second stage working time) for 13 and 20-25D ? With these I will be OK for now..

And again thanks for the help. I can also help you with 3D, russian translation, or with photos from Moscow. Usually I fly there about twice a year.



Im sorry for the misunderstanding..

This is a flight simulator, handling SAM just ground objects, as a threat and not controllable by the player any ways (except placement in mission editor). All the things we do can be considered a "hack". Sometimes we have to do weird things with the values to get the desired result ..

Let me explain.. Each SAM system is represented as a single unit - Each with radar launcher and specific missile.
We cannot use multiple missile types, or radars. For every upgrade, function or performance change we have to create new radar+launcher with dedicated missile. The performance of the unit depends on all three, radar, launcher and missile objects. Attributes have been distributed in a strange way..

Fire control radar has the following main values
-Search range (even though it does no search...)
-Track range (when it starts tracking)
-Radar max altitude
-Radar min altitude
-Visual range
-Optics (present or not)

Launcher unit
- Max Launch Range
- Min Launch Range
- Reloads (if reloadable)
- Reload time

Missile object
-Explosives (warhead in Kg. But blast range is much smaller and no fragment pattern)
-Fusing Distance (It is, distance for fuse, but there is no control over it. So it has to be much smaller)
-Guidance Type (constant numbers linked to game routines. define missile class
-Max Turn Rate (In Gs, but definitely not real life G capability - some different formula is used. )
-Lock on Chance (Percentage which result in a missile fails to lock on target)
-Launch Reliability (percentage, which result in a faulty missile)
-Arming Time (the start of missile guidance and homing activity, if it starts with delay)

-Seeker Field of vision
-Seeker Track Rate
-Seeker Range (Values for missiles with seeker head. Even command guidance missiles need these values set in order to be operational...)

-Min Launch Range
-Max Launch Range
-Duration (Missile lifetime. If expired before the missile flies into the ground itself in ballistic, it explodes in the air)
-Counter Countermeasure (Chaff/flare resistance percentage, against each piece of CM dropped by target)
-Noise Rejection (in percentage, largely unknown formula)
-Booster Start (if it start after release, Air to air weapons only)
-Booster Duration
-Booster Acceleration in Gs (calculated together with mass somehow)
-Sustainer Duration
-Sustainer Acceleration in Gs (calculated together with mass somehow)
-CEP (basically the accuracy of the impact in meters)

Now you can have a picture of my problem) So in many cases I have to change value in another object, because the data structure is such. For every type of missile needed a separate radar, launcher created... because of interlocked values. that's why I need all such data(

Last edited by Snailman; 03/04/16 11:12 AM.
#4236361 - 03/04/16 01:15 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Cat]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Missiles flight parameters are much more complex...
(all data is valid only to a specific outside temperature)

For example V-750
0..3sec accelerate to 530m/s
3..42sec accelerate to ...
750 m/s at 5 degree flight elevation angle
1200 m/s at 75 degree flight elevation angle

Engine cutoff is at 42sec.
(this is where guided flight ends)

The V-755 has two engine rating program for different launch angles, resulting engine runtime depending on launch angle.
(this is why your table is empty there) biggrin
Also this missile stays active (guidable) after engine cutoff, till decelerating below Mach1.
(this is heavily depends on actual flight altitude of the cutoff)

First stage is easy, if you omit outside temperature: 0..3sec accelerate to 550m/s
If you launch it at low elevation, its guided flight last just for 40sec, with a max speed of: 750m/s
If you launch it at high elevation, its guided flight can be 58sec, reaching max speed of: 1200m/s

After the guided flight, the missile (based on FCO selection before launch) either does a max up maneuver, or continues ballistic flight till self destruction.

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/04/16 01:52 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4237779 - 03/08/16 01:13 PM Re: S-75M3 Volhov (SA-2E Guideline) [Re: Cat]  
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Snailman Offline
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Thanks for the info, it was a great help, now I have a basic guideline smile how it works.

I have the SA-2A "system" (in game terms) as Fan Song A + V750 + Launcher for V750.

Missile ballistics are much better now... take a look..



They nicely detonate close to the target when the 45 sec expires.

Fan Song data section:

RadarSearchRange=110000.0
RadarSearchStrength=80
RadarTrackTime=10.0
RadarTrackRange=55000.0
RadarTrackStrength=75
RadarMinimumRange=3000.0
RadarMaximumAlt=27000.0
RadarMinimumAlt=3000.0

Here, I have to ask about this minimum altitude limitation. What does it mean, what is the effect of minimal alt? A radar limitation (cannot detect or lock) or a missile guidance problem (lost missile) or fuse (premature detonation) ?
Here I can only limit altitude within the Fan Song object... Range can be set in the launcher only.

#4238180 - 03/09/16 02:24 PM Other SIM related questions  
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Hpasp Offline
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Please check SAMSIM manual SA-2F page 7 for your answer.
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/09/16 02:32 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4238517 - 03/10/16 02:30 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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I'm sorry but where does it reply my question? I already know the minimal alt, my question was not about data numbers


Also I have found out that the booster stage could be regulated as well - hence the confusion in sources. PRD-18 - which variant (or all?) I'm still searching - but the reduction of the minimal range has been achieved with limiting the booster stage operating time between the interval of 2.5-4.5 sec and activation of autopilot for 2.5 sec after start - depending of trajectory. Similar procedure to how the second stage rocked engine was regulated.

Last edited by Snailman; 03/10/16 04:37 PM.
#4238806 - 03/11/16 12:23 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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"Also I have found out that the booster stage could be regulated as well - hence the confusion in sources. PRD-18 - which variant (or all?) I'm still searching"

Its not regulated at all, just set (in every 4 hours) by moving a pear shaped area limiter in the nozzle, to counter the effects of outside temperature change on the solid propellant.

"the reduction of the minimal range has been achieved with limiting the booster stage operating time between the interval of 2.5-4.5 sec and activation of autopilot for 2.5 sec after start - depending of trajectory."

Nope. The guidance wings are mechanically locked until booster separation.

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/11/16 12:25 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4238842 - 03/11/16 02:38 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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This tells a part of it. I'm think it must be familiar to you from your previous research. It is from the book about the S-75 (family) combat experience (1965-1973)

Maybe there was a misunderstanding :/ I speak no native russian. I just needed credible info on minimal ranges (and altitude limit). This seemed to be a decent writing among the fragments of information.

#4238928 - 03/11/16 05:56 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp Offline
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SA-75 Dvina “five van” (SA-2A) with V-750 1D (Guideline mod.0)
This system seen really limited export:
China 1958-3 operational +1 training system, 1959-2 operational systems
Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, DDR, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia (all in 1959 and each with 1 operational +1 training system)

... and was quickly superseded by the SA-75M Dvina “three van” (SA-2B) from 1960.

Anyhow if you want to simulate this curiosity...
Hmin: 3km
Hmax: 20km
Vtgtmax: 420m/s
Rmin: 12km
Rmax: 34km

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/11/16 06:03 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4238929 - 03/11/16 06:10 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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Just for your info, what to be simulate...

SA-75 Dvina “five van” (SA-2A) with V-750 1D (Guideline mod.0)
Export 1958~59, 12 systems

SA-75M Dvina “three van” (SA-2B) with V-750V 11D (Guideline mod.1)
Export 1960~1978, 332 systems

S-75 Desna (SA-2C) with V-750VN 13D (Guideline mod.2)
Export 1970~71, 32 systems

S-75V Volhov (SA-2E) with V-755 20D (Guideline mod.3) and V-759 5Ya23 (Guideline mod.5)
Export 1964~1988, 359 system

... so in your place, I would simulate SA-2B/F or the SA-2E.
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/11/16 06:34 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4238940 - 03/11/16 06:49 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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The flight sim has a timeframe from 1950 to about 1982-84 (technically it is possible to have modern dates, but not supported with modern avionics program code)

Your export table was extremely useful when creating the user list for the objects. Many thanks for it. But since we have Cold War gone Hot scenarios as well, it is important to have all the first line soviet stuff done as good as possible.
It's a western game - you can imagine - it is well biased and the "red side" has poor detail and even poorer playability. Red side intended to be dumb enemies controlled by the AI and not designed for human players.
Basically.. need to shut some big mouths who never fought against contemporary first line soviet technology - only vs aging third world tech.

The Dvina 1D is the most well done missile I have, from 57. The red diagram in my previous post show the 1D.
What I have very little info is Dyesna (and it's upgrades?), and the alt limited early Volkhov. The problem is that I don't know how the alt limit "works". I cannot see, I cannot lock, or cannot fire? Or I can, but missile will be lost anyway? I have no idea how to "simulate" that. What I did, is to limit the radar so it can't see - so it cannot lock and fire.

In SAM sim we have late batch missiles which work quite well against low alt.. so I can't try ))

#4238962 - 03/11/16 07:42 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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I would argue that.

From 1950..1984 time frame you have enough radar guided SAM types, that were fielded/exported in significant numbers, to make difference in the battlefield...

1954 S-25 Berkut (SA-1A)
1957 S-25M Sosna (SA-1B)
1960 SA-75M/MK Dvina-A/AK (SA-2B/F)
1964 S-75M* Volhov/Volga (SA-2E)
1969 S-125M Neva/Pechora (SA-3B)
1974 KRUG (SA-4B)
1974 KUB-M1/M3 (SA-6A)
1980 OSA-AK/AKM (SA-8B)
1984 S-200VE (SA-5B)

...simulating a system with an export lifetime of just 2 years is ... rolleyes

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/11/16 07:48 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4239180 - 03/12/16 07:22 PM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Snailman]  
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Originally Posted By: Snailman
The problem is that I don't know how the alt limit "works". I cannot see, I cannot lock, or cannot fire? Or I can, but missile will be lost anyway? I have no idea how to "simulate" that. What I did, is to limit the radar so it can't see - so it cannot lock and fire.




On low altitude the missile beacon is lost in between ground reflection, missile trajectory is not optimized against low profile targets (it was also mentioned in Hpasp manuals), radiofuse could detect ground and triggered the detonation...


Last edited by piston79; 03/13/16 04:17 PM.
#4240378 - 03/16/16 09:26 AM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicion... I begun to rework the radar systems. Thanks to you both and to SAM sim experience, I have discovered important hidden entries and features of our game.

We did have a RadarMinimumAltitude= before, but till now I did not know it has an intermediate zone as well.
This value sets the point where the radar stops working, but up to 2x of this value the radar can still track to some extent but only above 3x of this value it is stable enough to launch a missile. If it was launched, it will lose track with increasing chance as I dive back towards the lowest margin.

Testing testing testing.... duh

#4240382 - 03/16/16 09:57 AM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Snailman]  
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Originally Posted By: Snailman

Testing testing testing.... duh


It's all good, but when we found what is the name of your Sim, and more about it?

#4240385 - 03/16/16 10:40 AM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

1954 S-25 Berkut (SA-1A)
1957 S-25M Sosna (SA-1B)
1960 SA-75M/MK Dvina-A/AK (SA-2B/F)
1964 S-75M* Volhov/Volga (SA-2E)
1969 S-125M Neva/Pechora (SA-3B)
1974 KRUG (SA-4B)
1974 KUB-M1/M3 (SA-6A)
1980 OSA-AK/AKM (SA-8B)
1984 S-200VE (SA-5B)


SA-1 series is map limited tho, till we will have a Moscow map (when someone decides to build it) it is out of the question(
SA_2 - doing right now. Proceeding with 3D as soon as data will be final.
SA-3 - We have P-15 radar, and a 4x Missile launcher - next in row to develop.
SA-4 - We have missile only, launchers/radars under construction. On hold at the moment.
SA-5 - Old objects exist, working but with bad data. Need P-14 radar and soviet variants (Angara, Dubna)
SA-6 - Stock game items, work well but need data and 3D update for quality. We lack data on operating frequencies (value in GHz) to set up resistance against jamming. It has CW entry (Continuous Wave) which can be jammed only with equipment with CW=TRUE value.
SA-8/B - Stock objects are fine, work quite well. 3D update and data refinement needed for higher quality.
SA-10+ we have, need better 3D and data for more accuracy.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp

...simulating a system with an export lifetime of just 2 years is ... rolleyes


But how many years in soviet service? Priority for us is not the export but Soviet fielded systems. Dyesna and early Volkhov is important here as soviet-only equipment for early-mid 60's conflicts.
Is there any data somewhere on the composition of "System 75" type batteries in the USSR? A russian source mentions 4600 batteries (still?) active in the early 1980's.

#4240386 - 03/16/16 10:45 AM Re: Other SIM related questions [Re: piston79]  
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Snailman Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Snailman

Testing testing testing.... duh


It's all good, but when we found what is the name of your Sim, and more about it?



I did not mention the name only because I did not want to advertise it )) Thirdwire did the game Strike Fighters, but now they develop only on android mobile phones. We are modding the game as it was abandoned in 2012. We are a community on combatace.com.

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