They bristle with weaponry but Command control and comunication limitations would reduce their offensive capabilities considerably.

The Russian navy uses sattelites for communication, surveillance...

In addition the russians would never really be able to get anysort of airsuperiority in "blue water" so their OTH targeting craft would be really easy to destroy

...and for targeting/midcourse guidance....no OTH targeting aircraft required.

Now you see what you did??? You just bringed JJ back to life...and now we have to read all that stuff about various migs he said ..

Nice reading JJ... I just hope you do COPY/PASTE since you should be bored writing the same answers many times

LOL....yeah I was sleeping peacefully in my casket when I heard someone mention a MIG-29S with guided air-to-ground capability...

Well I dont normally, but since the thread starter seems to remain confused about the air-to-ground capability of the SU-33, I thought I would re-post what I wrote earlier....next time I can just re-post the MIG-29 bit. :p

Just to add some new flames to this discussion I wanted to ask you this. How reliable are sourses like FAS.org when it come to aircraft? I thought they were but when I read about the SU-33 Im not anymore since earlier postings here.
Take a look :p

Actually, consider when this info was written.

It's inaccurate because it's out dated /and/ because at that time, that was probably the believed armament of the Su-33.

FAS is okay. You won't find many other sites with that much info anyway. A few errors will creep in here and there.

Hi Jonathan,

FAS.org isnt particulary good when it comes to Russian aircraft - they do a much better job on ships(although there are errors there too).

Fas.org just compiles information they find from other sources, and as such the quality of the information they list is dependant on those. On a number of occations I have recognised entire pages of information being copy/pasted directly from articles published by Milparade(which on the other hand is a much more "authoritive" source).

You asked me to take a look at what they wrote on the SU-27 versions, and as always it is a mixture of some correct information and something which is total nonsense

"Su-30 (Su-27P) is a two-seat long-range intercept fighter that first flew in December 1989, and that entered service with the Russian air forces in 1992. Largely based on the Su-27UB two-seat trainer, it has a new radiolocation system which can transmit the positions of 10 targets to four other fighters at the same time. The Su-30 is made in Irkutsk."

Correct, but the initial designation for the SU-30 was "SU-27PU"(not "SU-27P")...the "-PU" is an abbreviation for the Russian terms for "interceptor(P)" and "trainer(U)"....which I unfortunately cannot remember off hand. The SU-30 does not have a new "radio location system", but an expanded datalinking capability, which allows it not only to "download" tactical information(which all MIG-29 and SU-27 versions can), but also to "upload" the information to other aircraft....the idea was to allow SU-30 interceptors to "link up" their radars and thereby provide surveillance of a large area - in the same way as is the practise with the MIG-31 interceptor. Additionally the SU-30 can act as "mission controller" for up to a squadron(12 units) of single seat SU-27s....i.e. a "Mini-AWACS". No more than a "hand full"(5-6) SU-30 aircraft were produced for the Soviet PVO forces, so it is a little bit of an exageration to say that the type "entered service in 1992"....it was more a case of "operational testing".

"Su-30M (MK-export version) is a standard Su-30 with the air-to-ground missiles which can carry twice the armament (8 tons) compared to the baseline Su-27. The Su-30 'export variant' of the formidable Su-27 'Flanker', can carry the latest Russian air-to-air missiles, including the medium-range R-27 family, the short-range R-73 and the new medium-range R-77 'AMRAAM-ski'."

Here things starts to go off track quickly .

First the export version of the SU-30 is called "SU-30K", and is in fact a downgraded version of the Russian SU-30(SU-27PU) interceptor...downgraded in the sense that it doesnt have the "mission controller" capability of this, and as such is to be considered no more than an SU-27UB with in-flight refuelling capability....and it certainly has no guided air-to-ground capability of any kind.

Socondly, the SU-30M can in no way be catagorised as "a standard SU-30 with air-to-ground missiles". The SU-30M was a radical new development, which in fact is better described as a mixture between the SU-30(interceptor) and the SU-35 multirole fighter...i.e. the SU-30M featured the movable canards, digital fly-by-wire control system, TVC engines and NIIP-N011M "Bars" phased-array radar...in other words, the type first offered for export as the "SU-30MK" and selected by India...which in turn provided the extra "-I" suffix(for "India").

They are right that the "SU-30MKK" for China is different from the "SU-30MKI", but they dont explain in what ways - here the "a standard SU-30 with air-to-ground missiles" is more appropriate, in the sense that the SU-30MKK doesnt have the canards, TVC engines or phased array radar, but uses the standard SU-30 airframe and engines and is equipped with an upgraded version of the original N001 radar(N001VE) with added air-to-surface modes. It(the SU-30MKK) is However, radically different from the standard SU-30 interceptor in regards to the cockpit instrumentation, and in addition to the upgraded N001VE radar has the OLS-30M optronic system, which "doubles" as targeting means for optically guided(TV and laser) air-to-ground munitions.

"Su-33 (Su-27K) is a carrier-based variant that first flew in May 1985, and entered service in the Russian Navy in 1994. The air regiment comprising 24 fighters of the type was formed up on Russia's only operating aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov. It has extra small wings near the pilots cabin which shorten the take-off distance and improve manoeuvrability. The Su-33 can also carry guided missiles such as the H-25MP, H-31 and H-41. The Su-33 is used in both night and day operations at sea, and operate with the command center ship and with the Ka-31 early-warning helicopter. With the R-27EM missiles it can intercept antiship missiles."

Mostly correct apart from the bit about guided air-to-surface missiles, which ....hang on let me put this on a seperate line...

...* the SU-33 doesnt have* .

However, there are a couple of minor errors such as the air regiment being "formed up on the Kuznetsov". The 279 KIAP has homebase at Severomorsk and the two squadrons it comprises(2 x 12 units) are split with one based on the "Kuz" while the other acts as shore based "back-up" squadron. Also while the SU-33 entered operational service in 1994, it wasnt actually officially accepted into service until 1998. They also fail to mention that the SU-33 has a larger wing area(some 67m2 as compared with the 62m2 of the basic SU-27) and has an "emergency thrust increase" function for the engines, which allows the thrust to be temporarily increased in connection with short ramp-assisted take-offs(the MIG-29K has this too....as well as increased wing area BTW).

"Su-34 (Su-27IB - Istrebitel-Bombardirovshchik) is a two seat ("arm-to-arm") strike variant that first flew in 1990. It features frontal wings and a large flattened nose with sharp edges (like the SR-71) reduce radar cross-section. This new ship-borne fighter is fitted with two AL-31FP engines with vectored thrust. Using them allows either the take-off distance or maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of the aircraft to be increased by 10-15 per cent. The aircraft has a distinctive large "sting" in the rear which contains the NO-14 radiolocation system, a radioelectronic countermeasures system, and a fuel tank. The Su-32 and Su-34 have been developed and are in serial production in Novosibirsk for the Russian Ministry of Defence."

This bit is just complete nonsense from one end to the other! .

First the nose shape has nothing to do with reduced RCS (LOL) - the nose-shape is due partially to the radar being installed in it(Leninets B004 phased array) and partially to improve visibility for the crew in connection with the intended role of the aircraft...i.e. ID´ing ground targets...another example of this can be seen with the MIG-27 ground attack version of the MIG-23, where the nose shape was altered for the same reason.

Secondly, "This new ship-borne fighter is fitted with two AL-31FP engines with vectored thrust" ....LOL. The SU-34(SU-27IB) it is a dedicated strike aircraft with a max TOW in excess of 40 tons!...the mere thought of it landing on a ship is ridiculous . This is a simple case of confusing the SU-34 with the SU-33UB(SU-27KUB) due to a superficially similar looking "side-by-side" cockpit arrangement. However, the SU-33UB and SU-34 have virtually nothing what so ever in common apart from being developed by the same design bureau

The SU-34 was designed as a replacement mainly for the SU-24(and MIG-27) in the strike role. Nor does the SU-34 have the AL-31FP TVC engines, but is equipped with the standard AL-31F engines...although both an upgraded version(increased power) of this as well as the new AL-41 engine under development have been mentioned in connection with it.

Third, the rear facing radar is the NIIP-N012(not "N014") and the SU-34 has not yet entered actual service - an initial batch of 12(IIRC) was produced for operational testing in the nineties.

"Su-35 (Su-27M) is a single-seat attack fighter that first flew in 1988. The Su-35 and Su-37 are made in Komomolsk-na-Amure. Like the Su-33 it features small wings near the cabin to enhance manoeuvrability."

The purpose of the canards on the SU-33 and on the SU-35 is not the same. On the SU-33 the canards are merely there to improve manouvrability in connection with low-speed carrier approaches - i.e. exclusively introduced for this and are "passive" in normal flight, whereas on the SU-35 the canards are integrated with the digital FBW system and provides increased manouvrability throughout the flight regime.

"It also has new digital pilot control and digital engine control systems, replacing the analog computers in the original Su-27. The radar, with a range of 400 km, can follow the position of 15 targets and fire at 6 of them at the same time. An improved "Zuk" ("Scarab") radar features a mobile (+/- 130 degree) antenna which can follow position of 24 targets with ability to fire to 8 of them."

:rolleyes: - the SU-35 was originally equipped with the NIIP-N011 planar slotted array radar(similar to the NIIR-N010 "Zhuk") which could track up to 15 targets and simultaneously engage up to 4 of them. A later development of this - the NIIP-N011M "Bars"(which is the current SU-35 radar) had the planar slotted antenna replaced by a Phased array, which in turn improved its capabilities considerably...now capable of tracking up to 24 targets and simultaneously engage 6-8 of them.

"The rear "sting" has a radiolocation system, which moved back the center of gravity, and which along with other innovations improve its tactical ability."

LOL..."radiolocation system" is another term for "radar"....which in the case of the SU-35(and SU-34 BTW) means installation of a N012 rearward facing radar for "360 degree" surveillance. My question is what the hell the presense of this has to do with the center of gravity?

L O L
Thank you very much mate
You gave me some nice laughs there Good to see someone who really KNOW stuff :p Good work

JJ just think what a 100-200 kg placed in the tail of the plane:) If the forward area will remained unchanged the CG will be moved a little back compared with the position of the unweighted one

About Su33 not carrying AG guided weapons..I am not STILL convinced that it can't carry and launch them, but not searching actively for a target just dumb carrier:) Ka-32 being responsable for guidance and corrections and Su33 a hauler .. Problem is witch missile sin as you said Kh41 is "fantasy"..

Just to give you started on something..
BTW nice RoAF screens and spelling is Good

Dont think so mate - the N012 is most likely a modified version of "Osa" phased array set, which is a very compact radar(e.g. used for the MIG-29UBT upgrade) that weighs little more than 100kg - hardly enough to make a serious change to the balance of an aircraft with a max TOW of more than 45 tons! .

Well the procedure you describe is what was thought to be the intended one for the SU-33 when carrying the "Kh-41"(airlaunched version of the Moskit)...i.e. acting as "delivery truck" for a missile which could be guided from external sources, which again is the case for most SSMs(to obtain "OHT"). I would be a little sceptical about the KA-31(not "KA-32" BTW ) providing this for an SU-33 though...while the radar range of the KA-31 is quite impressive, its operational range would appear to be a little too limited to provide support for a missile which, when airlaunched, could reach a range in excess of 200 km from launch point. I think the use of long range surveillance aircraft, or more likely, sattelites is a better bet

I wouldnt say that the airlaunched "Kh-41" is "fantazy"....there is no doubt that the Raduga design bureau was working on such a version of the Moskit missile, but according to them, the plans never materialised into an operational missile.

As for other guided air-to-surface/ground weapons - the problem is that actual ASMs are designed in a way, so that they require the launching platform to provide target acquisition prior to launch and to support them until - in the case of the Kh-31A and Kh-35 - they can acquire the targets on their own via onboard active radar seeker. Since the N001 radar(of the SU-33) doesnt have any air-to-surface modes, it cannot provide the initial targeting for such missiles

Thanks - glad you liked them . I will keep on working

No "biggie"

But actually the ASW version is the KA-27PL(in Russian service) or "KA-28"(export designation).

The correct name for the early warning version is actually KA-29RLD - "KA-31" is the export designation.

The "KA-32" is a civilian conversion of the military KA-29

Exactly

Nope thats the thing

Kuznetsov is getting ready to deploy this summer.

http://www.vesti.ru/video.html?vid=29816

It's in Russian but has some interesting shots.


babelfish translation of what's was said in the video clip.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish...lp=ru_en&tt=url

BP_Voskhod,

Interesting...thanks for posting it

Any word on where it will go?....I wonder if this means that the long awaited return to the Med is on

Afaik, it's going to deploy in the Atlantic along with a couple of Oscars and ships like PtG.

Sounds likely

Anyway, that´s PV and you know it!



....see?

Damn it! I can hear the sound but no video?!
What's the catch?

Breadfan

Need proper codec perhaps?

I have bunch of them..hmm..what are u using?

Breadfan

The only one I have installed is DivX, but there may be others that I'm not aware of.

It's an ASF file. It uses Windows Media Video and Audio. You should be able to get the WMV update from Microsoft.