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#4195502 - 11/17/15 01:50 PM Sometimes it just feels wrong..  
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Wodin Offline
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I know his has been brought up before a few times and I do love the realistic option of leader does not always attack. However I feel ti does backfire at times. This I think is mainly due to the AI not willing to break out of "Going Home" or I think it is "In Transit" and actually attack.

I'm flying in RFC 48 squadron currently and for the last 6 missions I think I've flown past or right over or right next to at least 6 different enemy flights and not once have we attacked. The last time was when I was patrolling the waypoints to keep away recon and fighter enemy and whilst over my sid eof the lines we flew what must have been no more than 50 or 10 meters right over a flight of Halbs who it appears might have been on the way home. I think we could have nearly shaken hands! This was the second time in the mission we had flown near an enemy flight but this was much closer. Once in awhile maybe this might happen but flying near observable enemy flights whilst on a patrol and not engaging those that could easily be engaged and your not escorting just seems wrong when it is happening near every flight. Infact my pilot has yet to actually engage the enemy since joining yet seen plenty of them.

I have to put this behaviour down to the Going Home and In transit modes and the AI not breaking out of them to engage. Nor it seems your friendly AI will engage any enemy in those modes.

I do hope before WOFF finally comes to an end this area gets a look at and any tweaks made where necessary.

(I thought I got some screenshots but sadly must have been pressing the wrong key!)

#4195542 - 11/17/15 03:18 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Banjoman Offline
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I agree wholeheartedly.


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#4195548 - 11/17/15 03:27 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Olham Offline
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They do switch to fighting mode from "In transit" for me.
In the "Going home" mode, they still turn to take an attacker on, but only for one or two rounds,
before they try to fly home again. But then there may be reasons like short of fuel, or out of
ammo after a previous fight?

It may also depend on the "morale" of a unit?

What I do in such situations as with the Halberstadts:
I'd just shoot at them.
Then they would switch to "Combat" mode, and that should make the rest of my flight
to also switch over - at least once they are getting attacked from the Halbies.


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
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#4195553 - 11/17/15 03:31 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Wodin, I tend to agree with your request and yes this has been brought up before. The devs are generally very responsive to us and I suspect will address this if it is possible. If it was easy I suspect it would already have been done. That said, I also have seen the squad break out of transit when attacked but only for short evasive manouvers and then they resume transit again rather than finishing their defence.

Best Regards


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#4195572 - 11/17/15 04:26 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Creaghorn Offline
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N�rnberg Frankonia
Yes, it might occasionally feel "wrong". But only because you don't know what the other squadrons task is. They might be underway or on the way back from attacking an airfield, from escorting twoseaters or recoinassance etc. They might simply be on their way back home, which doesn't necessarily means their label is "going home". That means they are not permanently in the mood to attack nor have they always the task to attack (think of Stachel disobeying orders). And even if they are in the mood to attack they sometimes might miss you or simply decide that you are too strong or them being too deep in enemy territory etc.

BTW. I have worked on and tested some stuff regarding AI-decisions and visions etc. in the past few months. It wasn't included officially because there was simply no time for the devs to test it very much, and one guy testing is thank god not enough to implement something officially, so I might upload it as an unofficial mod.

#4195577 - 11/17/15 04:53 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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OldHat Offline
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wave

Creaghorn, please, please upload that mod. I've been waiting for this on the edge of my seat...I will test the crap out of it inside out and everywhichway. If it's not written in archaic code, then I can try to understand the logic as well and provide any helpful input.

Don't know if you notice, but I am ready, willing and able....

#4195580 - 11/17/15 04:56 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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More and more I get the Impression, that these Behaviours are highly dependant on the Squad / individual Team Members...
there are overly cautious ones, that immedeately go home and land, as soon as they spot EA (remember Schock...)
...then there are the Ostrich-Types ( You ignore me when I ignore you)
...and the trigger-happy-Squads...

#4195607 - 11/17/15 06:01 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Creaghorn Offline
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Sorry OldHat, I just got word that it's going to be needed, so no unofficial mod. Sorry for making your mouth water pilot

#4195626 - 11/17/15 07:00 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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AceofPengwins Offline
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but wait that means that it's being used 'officially' then?

twoweeks

(Kidding of course :P )


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#4195639 - 11/17/15 07:13 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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MudWasp Offline
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Damm, that's cruel banghead

#4195695 - 11/17/15 10:21 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: MudWasp]  
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Olham Offline
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Originally Posted By: MudWasp
Damm, that's cruel banghead

Become a masochist - and you'll enjoy it! duck


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#4195720 - 11/17/15 11:54 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Creaghorn]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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Originally Posted By: Creaghorn
Sorry OldHat, I just got word that it's going to be needed, so no unofficial mod. Sorry for making your mouth water pilot


Well that's good news anyway.
Of course then we will probably have threads on stupidly aggressive and suicidal AI!

#4195749 - 11/18/15 02:40 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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HumanDrone Offline
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Well, to re-apply a phrase from dear old Charles Spurgeon in his fantastic John Ploughman's Talk,

Quote:
When <software developers> get downhearted because of hard, unkind remarks I generally tell them of the old man and his boy and his ass, and what came of trying to please everybody. No piper ever suited all ears.

I'm not saying don't try to make it better, or point out deficiencies where you find them, or even that your remarks are hard or unkind - I just find the quote funny, to be honest. I always marvel at the gentility of this forum. Duke's remark just brought it to mind that the discussion could easily swing back the other way. It's a lot easier to point out issues with code than it is to write it, and I've done plenty of both.

Maybe sometime I'll have time to get as deeply into this as you all are, and see what you mean. But as we approach Thanksgiving (at least here in the US), be thankful that Creaghorn's efforts are bearing fruit, we have the most involved and responsive devs I've seen anywhere (who share our passion with us), and we still overall have the best WWI air combat simulation available.

OK, sermonette over, resume your normal discussion! wink


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#4195794 - 11/18/15 06:37 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Wodin Offline
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There really was no excuse why they didn't engage the Halbs. We out numbered them. Had better planes. Where on our patrol route for the exact reason. We were on our side of the lines and had not been in any combat so no fatigue or low on ammo. The Halbs where on the way home with possible intel etc. Also we flew within 10 to 20 meters or so infact we cut up their formation. If this happened in the war I expect the leader would have been sent home for a rest or even to Craiglockheart. Also this was the THIRD flight we had come across and not engaged. Plus the preoou five missions exactly the same issues arose.

#4195814 - 11/18/15 09:15 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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OldHat Offline
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand

Of course then we will probably have threads on stupidly aggressive and suicidal AI!


Too bad I couldn't test out that MOD. I had hoped that the Devs were having a change of heart and allowing more flexibility with MODDing WOFF. There are too many encrypted files to be able to MOD AI behavior or integrating OFFice.

Every new feature really doesn't need to be an official patch with extensive testing to ensure a bug free game. Just look at other game titles which had major bugs, but were fixed by the community because the game was easy to MOD. That is why games which are MOD friendly last longer.

So, there is an easy fix. Devs make an ini file which will allow us have ultimate control on AI behavior, unencrypt the squad files (like they were in OFF) so that we can integrate OFFice, etc...

Then we release user AI mods and OFFice ....and everyone is happy.
biggrin

#4195818 - 11/18/15 09:44 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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High over the Front
I will say I am very curious what this mod entails and how it will work. And if I was King OldHat I would send you - and other knowledgable types like yourself - the mod for testing via PM but OBD seems to keep things close to the chest. I wish I had time to be a good and thorough tester.
Hopefully it will be a real code change (for the better of course!) and not a "vision/reaction time.xml" edit where the change, at least when I tried to do it, apparently had mixed (or no) obvious results.

But then one must assume that OBD knows much better then I what numbers, or what combination of said numbers, to tweak to obtain much better results.
I really do sympathize with the Dev's - it seems to me that "cooking .xml's" trying to chase a desired result, with all the ever changing variables already built into this fine game. must be a hell of a task.
S!

#4195821 - 11/18/15 10:03 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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JJJ65 Online cool
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Youare crying to deaf ears, OldHat nope.
PM sent.

#4195871 - 11/18/15 02:37 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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I must say, that the AI itself doesn't have to be modified.
The only Thing is, that the Potential of it isn't always used in a Way, that fits the Situation (regardless of the Experience of the AI-Pilot)

Here is a great Example of the AI's Skill and Behaviour:
Watch the Pup, especially from 4:50 onwards


#4196135 - 11/19/15 05:30 AM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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OldHat Offline
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Problem is that the AI needs to be modified according to the type of plane they fly in order to take advantage of its capabilities better during a dogfight. Now, the AI is only dependent on skill, fatigue and morale regardless of what type of plane it is. Also, you can easily make the AI quit a turn fight (like in your video) by just continuously turning with them. Then, they'll get tired and fly home at the perfect altitude allowing you a good chance to sneak behind and shoot him up. At least he could escape and fly at tree top level to make it harder for you to pursue him or if he was not injured/damaged plane, then he could have went into a pattern of climbing followed by steep dives when he saw that your were approaching from behind in order to try and gain more distance between you and him and make himself a harder target to hit.

#4196241 - 11/19/15 01:53 PM Re: Sometimes it just feels wrong.. [Re: Wodin]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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Yes, one can make most AI-Pilots quit turn-fighting by merry-go-round-...ing, but in the above Case, he quit, because he ran out of Space. Directly after that, he performed a Hook - and the Alb is not agile enough to follow through such a Maneuver.
I was truly marvelled by what the AI has shown, there... the whole 9 Minutes driving
...and that is, what I wanted to show:
It's all there.
Our occasional Problems are more based on the Fact, that the Capabilities of the AI are not always activated on a given Occasion... not looking backwards when persued and fleeing ( the "Going-Home-Mode-Topic") for example.

Last edited by Nietzsche; 11/19/15 01:53 PM.
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