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#4185456 - 10/23/15 08:12 PM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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I think there is a big difference between "there's nothing stopping you" and "waiting to see if ED lays some ground work to significantly lower implementation costs." Also syncing is one of the biggest hurdles to MP sharing anything.

If I was making a DCS module I would be very slow to tackle new features during the shifting sands of new framework developments when I have a plenty long list of bugs and mechanics to work on that I know will survive the 1.2->2.0 transition with much less headache. I think every single 3rd party module is still in beta at best.

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#4185548 - 10/24/15 01:50 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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close this..

threatening, speculating

We had a nice forum here when the A-10C came out. Lots of folks who helped each other, and joked around and had fun -- for years. Had Fly-Ins and lots of flights together. Don't see the old crowd anymore. I wish SimHQ DCS World was not used as a complaint forum. PC rules, pituie. This is not a happy place.

Wrecking Crew

#4185551 - 10/24/15 02:04 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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I predicted this ^^^

For Those Waiting For EDGE...

WC

#4185559 - 10/24/15 02:24 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Multi crew as a base code functionality has been part of DCS since the Huey..

saying 1.5 is blocking front seat / back seat of the C101 and Hawk is a load of bull.

the only thing new in 1.5 is translating those multi crew seats to the MP Slots etc.
(and some other technical stuff). Aircraft multicrew could have easily been used in 1.2.16 just as it was for the huey and Mi8.


Skate Zilla - 1, Conspiracy theorists - 0.



Then why is the L39 multicrew still incomplete? I am actually wondering how long it will take ED to complete it, because that would be a milestone we can use to measure how soon the other teams will get their multicrew working.

#4185574 - 10/24/15 02:45 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Originally Posted By: straycat
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Multi crew as a base code functionality has been part of DCS since the Huey..

saying 1.5 is blocking front seat / back seat of the C101 and Hawk is a load of bull.

the only thing new in 1.5 is translating those multi crew seats to the MP Slots etc.
(and some other technical stuff). Aircraft multicrew could have easily been used in 1.2.16 just as it was for the huey and Mi8.


Skate Zilla - 1, Conspiracy theorists - 0.



Then why is the L39 multicrew still incomplete? I am actually wondering how long it will take ED to complete it, because that would be a milestone we can use to measure how soon the other teams will get their multicrew working.


You are an [edited].

WC


That was uncalled for WC...you definitely know better then that.


Last edited by Force10; 10/24/15 04:04 PM. Reason: Personal insult
#4185578 - 10/24/15 02:51 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: Wrecking Crew]  
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Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew
I predicted this ^^^

For Those Waiting For EDGE...

WC


Just so I'm clear...your saying that the OP...has no right whatsoever to speculate that the 1.5 release caused issues/delays to the 3rd parties?

When it comes to speculating about ED...or what's happening with the money you spent on a module...no go huh? Or is it that it has to be phrased in a way that ED would approve of?

Things always look rosier in the rearview mirror...but I have been in the flightsim community for almost 2 decades, and there was just as much controversy, ranting and insult hurling back then as there is now. Just because ED is enjoying what's basically a monopoly being the last man standing...which gives them the leverage run a censorship type forum unheard of 10 years ago...doesn't mean that SimHQ has to fall in line and be a carbon copy of the ED forum and ban members for negative comments.

The original post was pretty harmless...it's only those who chose to start a crusade against the harmless comment that turned this thread ugly.


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#4185582 - 10/24/15 02:53 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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"What he is doing, IMO, is setting the groundwork for complaining about the *future* before it is presented. So now it is predicting the reason for complaints, and why not, it seems to be the next logical step in their 'right to conversation'.

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4137155#ixzz3pRyJYZgY
Follow us: @SimHQ on Twitter | SimHQ on Facebook"

WC


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Find my DCS World missions at Wrecking Crew Projects. All released missions are free to download, modify and publicly host -- enjoy!
#4185587 - 10/24/15 03:02 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Originally Posted By: straycat
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Multi crew as a base code functionality has been part of DCS since the Huey..

saying 1.5 is blocking front seat / back seat of the C101 and Hawk is a load of bull.

the only thing new in 1.5 is translating those multi crew seats to the MP Slots etc.
(and some other technical stuff). Aircraft multicrew could have easily been used in 1.2.16 just as it was for the huey and Mi8.


Skate Zilla - 1, Conspiracy theorists - 0.



Then why is the L39 multicrew still incomplete? I am actually wondering how long it will take ED to complete it, because that would be a milestone we can use to measure how soon the other teams will get their multicrew working.


That does make sense. I totally expect the first dual seat will be 1st party. I wouldn't even consider any antipathy toward any 3rd party developer until it's demonstrated 1st party.

#4185597 - 10/24/15 03:30 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: Wrecking Crew]  
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Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew
"What he is doing, IMO, is setting the groundwork for complaining about the *future* before it is presented. So now it is predicting the reason for complaints, and why not, it seems to be the next logical step in their 'right to conversation'.


So I'm supposed to pre-determine what is his intentions are (through clairvoyance I presume?) and lock the thread immediately after his first post?

That's what your suggesting?


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#4185609 - 10/24/15 04:18 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted By: Frederf


That does make sense. I totally expect the first dual seat will be 1st party. I wouldn't even consider any antipathy toward any 3rd party developer until it's demonstrated 1st party.



For me it is not antipathy but more frustration. I was very excited about the 2 new LN planes which they were supposed to announce and release this year. And no word at all for 3 weeks now makes me convinced something unforeseen caused problems.

As for the L39, I think it will be the flagship plane for multicrew but does not offer any info on when it will be complete. I fear they will do some open-ended 1+ year thing. As for the CC101 the developers were probably not experienced with DCS so it is more probable that they tripped over something and had delays.
But ED themselves having no clear completion date for 100% working multicrew on a plane whose purpose is exactly that.

#4185617 - 10/24/15 05:43 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Quote:
On criticism, I've always found a polite approach helps.


Spot on, and it never ceases to amaze me how folks just don't get it. If you want your message to be heard, you need to present it in such a way that people LISTEN, because ranting and raving just turns most folks off.

Still, I'm all for everyone's right to vent if they need to. Just don't be surprised - and/or butt-hurt - if no-one gives a toss wink

#4185620 - 10/24/15 06:27 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: msalama]  
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Originally Posted By: msalama
Quote:
On criticism, I've always found a polite approach helps.


Spot on, and it never ceases to amaze me how folks just don't get it. If you want your message to be heard, you need to present it in such a way that people LISTEN, because ranting and raving just turns most folks off.


I 100% agree about being polite...it should be two way street though. A good example is the WOFF forum here at SimHQ. There you have a developer and the same breed of passionate flight sim fans existing together in a sort of symbiotic harmony. I might add that the WOFF forum routinely has more threads then the DCS World section here.

It's really not rocket science how this is possible...it's mutual respect between developer and customer.

winkngrin


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#4185629 - 10/24/15 09:00 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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So has ED been disrespectful in your opinion then? Granted, they could've handled their PR better and I can understand at least some of the frustration behind the rage here, but the fact of rude and angry people being ignored still stands.

Say you call a customer helpline. Do you think anyone's going to listen to you if you start raging at them?

#4185635 - 10/24/15 09:39 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: msalama]  
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Originally Posted By: msalama
So has ED been disrespectful in your opinion then? Granted, they could've handled their PR better and I can understand at least some of the frustration behind the rage here, but the fact of rude and angry people being ignored still stands.

Say you call a customer helpline. Do you think anyone's going to listen to you if you start raging at them?


That depends on the nature of the business, and the nature / degree of rage being expressed. It's not an automatic given that an angry customer calling a customer helpline is going to be ignored. Many businesses can not afford that luxury (whether they realize it, or not).

I used to be the co-owner of a dial-up ISP business. In the early days, I handled virtually all of the customer support. Later on, we had employees to (usually) handle the initial interaction with the customers, and I would handle the more advanced problems when they escalated up to me. I instructed the employees that they did not have to put up with someone threatening them with physical harm or profusely swearing at them. However, I made it a point to have a longer fuse with an upset customer, and encouraged the employees to strive for that also. Letting the customer vent, (and making the effort to pick out the clues to what the actual problem was) frequently turned out to be a happy ending. Numerous times, I would end up with the customer apologizing and often even thanking me for hearing them out and getting the problem solved. The hard-to-please were frequently the best sources of word-of-mouth advertising. In many cases, their acquaintances knew what a PITA they could be, and realized if we could keep the complainer happy, we were likely to satisfy them as well.

Did we bend over backwards for everybody? No. We (the owners) judged some individuals to be more trouble than their monthly/yearly subscriptions were worth. There were a few that we cut loose when they got unreasonable yet again. It was surprising when a couple of them begged to come back.

Does that example translate to every business? Of course not. But then, these are 3rd party forums, not a customer support line. Detractors and supporters are both free to express their opinions here as long as they abide by the rules. The people of differing opinions are free to ignore them, too (There is even a handy ignore user function built into the forum software, if one is so inclined).

#4185639 - 10/24/15 10:25 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Quote:
both free to express their opinions here as long as they abide by the rules


True. And I'm a staunch supporter of said rights, even if I may have clashed with some of our members in the past. Still, I don't quite understand the point of raging (even when I've been guilty of it myself from time to time, granted), because in the end, it just tends to put people off. So it's not so much that I _disapprove_ of it really, I just don't understand it.

Well OK, raging may have some therapeutic value, I give you that wink So it's not _entirely_ pointless then...

#4185690 - 10/24/15 02:44 PM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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yes your rants over the years have given me a reason to dislike u


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#4185695 - 10/24/15 03:08 PM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Mine??? Can't please everybody no matter how hard you try, eh biggrin

#4185876 - 10/25/15 06:02 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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Good God


After reading this thread and seeing the bitterness and well frankly personal attacks being thrown out. It personally doesn't surprise me one bit that developers don't want to listen or even hear what we really have to say anymore.

I have been desperately trying to remember why I left simming back in 2012. After seeing this thread I remember now. It seems like to me that we all in some ways have forgotten why it is we started simming in the first place. For me it was the joy of being able to experience the joys of flying a complex aircraft that I know I would never have a real chance to fly.

I completely understand why the F18C could not be modeled with real world systems as some of them are classified. Heck the only real reason we got the A-10C so accurate was that the military wanted a simulator that could run scenarios.

But the one thing that shocks me now is that it used to be on SimHQ we all had a feeling of being a sounding board for one another but I feel like that has changed now. Now it just feels downright hostile. But then again maybe I have had one too many rum and cokes tonight.


Ahh CLOD never in the history of Simming has so much been promised and so little given.

However I want to thank Team Fusion for keeping the Dream Alive.
#4185881 - 10/25/15 08:37 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: straycat]  
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I think the key difference is that years ago we were playing complete and polished sims.

Regardless of the complexity ad high fidelity of the products they are incomplete and it's often frustrating when there are minor and major bugs that still reside when new products are announced and worked on.

Obviously it's the'norm' these days, ED aren't the only ones but at the same time ED aren't the most efficient in their planning and communication. Another difference is that other devs actually fix or finish their products within a reasonable timeframe. I think some people have the right to be hostile. ....the way ED treat their customers and the service they provide wouldn't be tolerated in other businesses.


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#4185886 - 10/25/15 09:42 AM Re: Speculation: 1.5 caused massive issues for all 3rd parties, which causes all these delays. [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
I think the key difference is that years ago we were playing complete and polished sims.


What are these "polished sims"? You must have lived in a different universe the last decade.
Do you remember the 'internal error' from Flanker multiplayer sessions 15 years ago?

What i do remember is the rant about Lomac after the release and the guy who told that
his friend will die of cancer in a few weeks and he's enjoying the sim every single day.
He got a photo in the pilot logbook back then.

I think everyone at ED could get a different employment if they want and to me it is surprising
to see them in sim development after this many years - and thank them all. Personally,
i would have said "Ignore this crap and let's go fishing!" and close shop long time ago.

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