Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
#4169048 - 09/15/15 12:04 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 165
DeadMeat Offline
Professional Meat Shield
DeadMeat  Offline
Professional Meat Shield
Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 165
Kentucky
A quick scan around the internet and it seems that to purchase a detailed airport scenery for FSX or Prepar3d cost around $20. Area scenery is all over the map depending on the area and the detail but it would seem that you would pay about $30. Right now the only campaign for sale by ED is $10.

Now the NTTR map comes with the area: $30. 4 highly detailed airports: $80. 2 free campaigns: $20.

Cost right now of the NTTR map is $39.99. I think that we are getting a bargain for it.ED has been working on this for years after it was dropped into there lap. I will gladly pay for the new content and I'm sure that I will get my moneys worth out of it. If I didn't think I would get a lot of play time out of the map I would just wait for SOH.

Considering the Number of hours I have put into DCS, and the insanely low cost per hour of gameplay, I don't think that it is unreasonable for them to ask for some compensation for the map.

As usual though, this is just my opinion, and in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean that much.

See you guys in the skies!

DM


I've come to realize that many adults act more childish than most children.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4169074 - 09/15/15 12:45 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
I don't know if FSX addons are the best comparison because IMO people who buy those things are inured to paying a lot for a little.

I do not think Nevada should be free, I recognize a lot of time and effort went into it. I don't think I agree with the price point, though. Maybe $25-30 would be a better range. Of course, this is based on the "idea" of the terrain as I've not actually experienced it to know how good it is or isn't.

I could quite easily load it up, fly around, and say "this is worth more than $35 easy" or I could say "no more than $20!" I can't prejudge.

That said, I'll likely preorder it to get it for $40 because I certainly am not going to pay more than that sight unseen. Videos and screenshots are just not enough to give me the feel to make me think I truly know what I'll be getting.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4169134 - 09/15/15 02:45 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,804
ST0RM Offline
Senior Member
ST0RM  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,804
Ten Mile, Tn
Part of me wonders where else the NTTR will be used. We saw a high-detail Ft Rucker scenery that was commercial, but based off the ED engine/terrain. Hmm, what was that for?? Where'd it go?

Seeing how the USAF is moving toward virtual exercises, there will be a need for a highly detailed terrain of the area. And with the delays to NTTR and the continual visual enhancements to the engine, I'm curious if this isnt part of another larger Government contract, ala the A-10C module.

Anyhow, I'll pre-order at $39.99 simply to fly around a new area that I know well. Fingers crossed the F-5E Matt kept casually mentioning, might pop up too.

-Jeff

#4169159 - 09/15/15 03:32 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
Given the rate at which BST produces modules, I'm surprised it was far along enough to be a module icon those few months ago, and not have been released already.

The downside of course being that I'll probably have settled down, married and had kids before they'd finish the F-5. Still waiting for the Huey engine to be finished, emergency gear release on the Sabre, etc.

#4169227 - 09/15/15 05:51 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
Flogger23m Offline
Senior Member
Flogger23m  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
US
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Maybe $25-30 would be a better range.


I'd agree. Partially for MP compatibility. It is hard getting people into flight sims, and if you want to play with them online not only will they need appropriate planes for the mission but they might need some expensive (in relation to games) terrian to join you. Sure, we can all play on the Black Sea map, but you just can't cut/paste a mission from map to map for obvious reasons.

I know it won't happen, but a new map built in EDGE that is free for everyone would be nice. Would give everyone a common map with the newer technologies and detail levels.

#4169249 - 09/15/15 06:21 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 85
Exorcet Offline
Junior Member
Exorcet  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 85
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
However what puts me off is this Nevada map is not free and/or is too expensive! After many years (actually more than a decade) of buying several DCS products/modules and before it Lock On (and I won't even mention Flanker 2/2.5) and always playing them on the same map (Black Sea) and therefore supporting ED, I believe that we customers have "purchased ourselves" the right to have an another map (different from Black Sea) for DCS for FREE.

And this is even worse considering that ED want's to sell the Nevada map for what I consider an "insane" amount of $49.99 USD! That's just as much or even more than most aircraft/helicopter modules.


I don't really follow. Each product ED makes takes effort to produce, so it's pretty natural that they all come at a price. Buying all the products is as much supporting ED as it is supporting yourself, assuming you're enjoying them. If you're worried about money, you can just not buy what you don't want. ED has gone pretty crazy sales as well, so soon, the map might well be half of the pre order price, or less.

I don't like Nevada as much as the Black Sea, but I think it's worth getting, so I've bought it. I don't even think twice about the campaigns that come with it as they don't really interest me. $40 is pretty good for a large combat area. The project has taken as long as an aircraft module to release, so it may have taken a similar amount of work. How else can you try to decide the value of something? The biggest downside for me is the small number of airports, but ED has said that such things might change down the line. If the map is expanded later, I'll find it even harder to see how it's overpriced.

#4169310 - 09/15/15 07:46 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Perhaps, but you can't buy it today on the premise of it might be worth more tomorrow.

The history of software development leads towards "what it is today is all it will ever be" far more. While ED does update their stuff over the years, the pace is not much past glacial. Missile modeling for instance? We've had problems with the AIM-120's effectiveness since LOMAC in 2003. I think 12 years and still "working on it" is hardly swift.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4169321 - 09/15/15 07:55 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Quote:
same quote


I think it's a bad precedent to establish to say "I'll pay $50 for new planes but other stuff has to be cheap or free!" With that atmosphere you just get Rise of Flight which churned out little else but money-focused plane after plane and then closed shop without improving the AI or dynamic campaign modes at all. DCS is already dangerously close to going down the same road; let's not push the wagon that way. The more variety in improvement the healthier the product is.

Also the mentality that buying their products gains invisible brownie points that ED owes you for is pretty lame. Buy products where the product is worth the money right now, not to float the company or because they might patch it to be fun later.

#4169324 - 09/15/15 08:01 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,111
Wrecking Crew Offline
Smooth Operator
Wrecking Crew  Offline
Smooth Operator
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,111
Colorado
I just spent $40 on Strella beer to drink while enjoying DCS; between me and raven that'll last a week. We've been enjoying DCS for about 5 years.

WC


I know how to spell it. beercheers
You know you've been playing DCS too long when you reach into the fridge and pull out a beer and yell, "Launch, launch!"

#4169344 - 09/15/15 08:32 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: DeadMeat]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted By: DeadMeat
A quick scan around the internet and it seems that to purchase a detailed airport scenery for FSX or Prepar3d cost around $20. Area scenery is all over the map depending on the area and the detail but it would seem that you would pay about $30. Right now the only campaign for sale by ED is $10.

Now the NTTR map comes with the area: $30. 4 highly detailed airports: $80. 2 free campaigns: $20.

Cost right now of the NTTR map is $39.99. I think that we are getting a bargain for it.ED has been working on this for years after it was dropped into there lap. I will gladly pay for the new content and I'm sure that I will get my moneys worth out of it. If I didn't think I would get a lot of play time out of the map I would just wait for SOH.

Considering the Number of hours I have put into DCS, and the insanely low cost per hour of gameplay, I don't think that it is unreasonable for them to ask for some compensation for the map.

As usual though, this is just my opinion, and in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean that much.

See you guys in the skies!

DM


The big difference here is that having or not having extra airports and scenarios doesn't limit your gameplay or to be more precise where and how you can fly. If you don't have any extra airports or scenarios (fully vanilla) in FSX you can still fly to, land into, takeoff from and fly around any airports or to fly around any scenario within the game.
Yes, vanilla airports and scenarios aren't as pretty as the extra ones but you can fully enjoy the game (and not limited in terms of gameplay) while flying in FSX.

Now in DCS and by having every extra map payable, this will greatly limit DCS gameplay and playability. DCS by not modeling the entire earth (and only having separate maps) is already much more limited than FSX if you want to "fly around" and by having payable extra maps makes such experience much more limited.

Besides I fully agree with what Flogger23m said, having extra payable maps will create multiplayer incompatibilities and may even create them in single player as well -> Imagine that you buy a new module aircraft that comes with a campaign or missions that take place in Nevada? You can't fully enjoy the product (new module aircraft) that you just bought!
Probably for these reasons I never saw any other company selling extra maps (alone) other than probably Rise of Flight (which BTW I don't play).
I guess a good plan is what BIS done with its ArmA games. They release payable addons that include not only new maps but also new units but the new maps will end up being available for free for the users that don't wish to buy the addon (while the extra units don't). IMO, ED should do something along these lines but that's only my humble opinion...

Resuming I'm not against payable addons as long as they don't break the "game base". Not having extra/addon/module aircraft doesn't break the "game base" because while you can't fly a certain aircraft that you don't own, you can fly what you do own. But if a certain mission (MP for example) is played in a map that you don't own and even if you own all the available aircraft you still can't play the game!

#4169354 - 09/15/15 08:52 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,111
Wrecking Crew Offline
Smooth Operator
Wrecking Crew  Offline
Smooth Operator
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,111
Colorado
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
But if a certain mission (MP for example) is played in a map that you don't own and even if you own all the available aircraft you still can't play the game!


Same currently for an MP mission that you don't have the aircraft for...

WC

#4169359 - 09/15/15 08:58 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 85
Exorcet Offline
Junior Member
Exorcet  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 85
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Perhaps, but you can't buy it today on the premise of it might be worth more tomorrow.


I agree to an extent, and to clarify, I'm not saying NTTR should be bought on what ifs. What is being given is worth the money already in my opinion.

Quote:
The history of software development leads towards "what it is today is all it will ever be" far more. While ED does update their stuff over the years, the pace is not much past glacial. Missile modeling for instance? We've had problems with the AIM-120's effectiveness since LOMAC in 2003. I think 12 years and still "working on it" is hardly swift.



This could be a separate topic, but it depends. In the example you gave in particular, 12 years and not finished seems reasonable given the subject (missile performance). They're never going to get it right with foreseeable technology and declassified information. There will always be room for improvement, it's just a matter of priorities.

While I am a big proponent of the change to AFM missiles, I think it could have been handled better. Then again, EDGE is a pretty big priority for a decade + old sim engine, so I can't really say that it's surprising that it was put on the back burner for a while. All of this is said from the outside looking in as well, which should be kept in mind.

#4169360 - 09/15/15 08:58 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
Force10 Offline
I'm just a
Force10  Offline
I'm just a
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,187
CA
Just so I'm clear...the pre-release Open Alpha price is $39.99...and then it goes up to $49 for released Open Alpha?

I'm pretty much done with buying early access anything, Aplhas, Betas, and kickstarter stuff...I'm talking about all gaming, not just DCS. I certainly understand folks being excited about NTTR and grabbing it...Nevada as a "theater" never really excited me too much though. I will probably get it when it goes to a full retail version (if there even is such a thing anymore).

There have been many times when I made up my mind not to buy something...only to watch some user AAR's or videos that changed my mind. Who knows, I might see how interesting and immersive Red Flag scenarios can be by watching others and end up buying it.

smile


Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
Windows 7 64 bit Home edition
Intel I5 4670K @ 4.4 ghz
16 gig 1866mhz Corsair Vengence Pro memory
EVGA GTX 970 Superclocked 4gb Video Card
Intel 510 series 120gb SSD (boot drive)
Samsung 840 1TB SSD
Onboard Realtek sound
______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



#4169409 - 09/15/15 10:56 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
Isn't Red Flag pretty much one of the few places on earth where realistic & modern high tech A-A combat actually takes place these days.............


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#4169414 - 09/15/15 11:14 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 584
3instein Offline
Member
3instein  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 584
Falkirk,Scotland
I am really looking forward to the Nevada map. I am not fussed about red flag missions TBH, but mostly with a little imagination I could place myself in the Middle East and come up with some simple missions that reflect that.

One of those live streams that Wags did sold it for me, when he was flying the SU-27 it looked really lovely and smooth, and with trees finally being objects that you can collide with, it will make flying the hellos a lot more realistic now.

Money is really tight for me just now but I think £26 for the new map along with 2 campaigns if bought before Oct 1st is a pretty good deal, and a welcome change from the Black Sea map.

Mick. smile


"An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile hoping he will be eaten last"

Winston Churchill

#4169424 - 09/15/15 11:48 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
Flogger23m Offline
Senior Member
Flogger23m  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
US
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: DeadMeat
A quick scan around the internet and it seems that to purchase a detailed airport scenery for FSX or Prepar3d cost around $20. Area scenery is all over the map depending on the area and the detail but it would seem that you would pay about $30. Right now the only campaign for sale by ED is $10.

Now the NTTR map comes with the area: $30. 4 highly detailed airports: $80. 2 free campaigns: $20.

Cost right now of the NTTR map is $39.99. I think that we are getting a bargain for it.ED has been working on this for years after it was dropped into there lap. I will gladly pay for the new content and I'm sure that I will get my moneys worth out of it. If I didn't think I would get a lot of play time out of the map I would just wait for SOH.

Considering the Number of hours I have put into DCS, and the insanely low cost per hour of gameplay, I don't think that it is unreasonable for them to ask for some compensation for the map.

As usual though, this is just my opinion, and in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean that much.

See you guys in the skies!

DM


The big difference here is that having or not having extra airports and scenarios doesn't limit your gameplay or to be more precise where and how you can fly. If you don't have any extra airports or scenarios (fully vanilla) in FSX you can still fly to, land into, takeoff from and fly around any airports or to fly around any scenario within the game.
Yes, vanilla airports and scenarios aren't as pretty as the extra ones but you can fully enjoy the game (and not limited in terms of gameplay) while flying in FSX.

Now in DCS and by having every extra map payable, this will greatly limit DCS gameplay and playability. DCS by not modeling the entire earth (and only having separate maps) is already much more limited than FSX if you want to "fly around" and by having payable extra maps makes such experience much more limited.

Besides I fully agree with what Flogger23m said, having extra payable maps will create multiplayer incompatibilities and may even create them in single player as well -> Imagine that you buy a new module aircraft that comes with a campaign or missions that take place in Nevada? You can't fully enjoy the product (new module aircraft) that you just bought!
Probably for these reasons I never saw any other company selling extra maps (alone) other than probably Rise of Flight (which BTW I don't play).
I guess a good plan is what BIS done with its ArmA games. They release payable addons that include not only new maps but also new units but the new maps will end up being available for free for the users that don't wish to buy the addon (while the extra units don't). IMO, ED should do something along these lines but that's only my humble opinion...

Resuming I'm not against payable addons as long as they don't break the "game base". Not having extra/addon/module aircraft doesn't break the "game base" because while you can't fly a certain aircraft that you don't own, you can fly what you do own. But if a certain mission (MP for example) is played in a map that you don't own and even if you own all the available aircraft you still can't play the game!


Good point about the campaigns. I suppose all campaigns that come with aircraft should be forced to be done on the Black Sea map so everyone can play it. Paid campaigns are a different story, as long as they state which map they will use.

I've always support the concept that the base game and any updates should be free, but aircraft and campaigns can be paid. I shutter to think we might have to buy maps, AI, clouds, AI units, ect. Will make it a nightmare if we plan to play online.

#4169431 - 09/16/15 12:14 AM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: Flogger23m]  
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 24
VincentLaw Offline
Junior Member
VincentLaw  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 24
ED Forums
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
I've always support the concept that the base game and any updates should be free, but aircraft and campaigns can be paid. I shutter to think we might have to buy maps, AI, clouds, AI units, ect. Will make it a nightmare if we plan to play online.

For single player it really isn't much a problem, but my concern is that multiplayer servers with other interesting maps will be difficult to find and have low player population. I've been under the impression that access to AI world war 2 ground units might require owning the Normandy map. Now what happens when someone makes a multiplayer server set in Nevada, but then randomly decides to throw a target Sherman on the test range for fun?

*Failed to connect to server*

As the list of available DLC becomes longer, people who own everything might not even realize what units came with what pack and have difficulty creating missions that are compatible for most players. I strongly encourage ED to enforce all supported AI vehicles being part of the free base game, otherwise the entry cost for a new player to participate in multiplayer could become very high, and first time players trying to connect to a multiplayer server will simply have a frustrating experience.

Last edited by VincentLaw; 09/16/15 12:16 AM.
#4169510 - 09/16/15 05:38 AM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: VincentLaw]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
Flogger23m Offline
Senior Member
Flogger23m  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
US
Originally Posted By: VincentLaw
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
I've always support the concept that the base game and any updates should be free, but aircraft and campaigns can be paid. I shutter to think we might have to buy maps, AI, clouds, AI units, ect. Will make it a nightmare if we plan to play online.

For single player it really isn't much a problem, but my concern is that multiplayer servers with other interesting maps will be difficult to find and have low player population. I've been under the impression that access to AI world war 2 ground units might require owning the Normandy map. Now what happens when someone makes a multiplayer server set in Nevada, but then randomly decides to throw a target Sherman on the test range for fun?

*Failed to connect to server*

As the list of available DLC becomes longer, people who own everything might not even realize what units came with what pack and have difficulty creating missions that are compatible for most players. I strongly encourage ED to enforce all supported AI vehicles being part of the free base game, otherwise the entry cost for a new player to participate in multiplayer could become very high, and first time players trying to connect to a multiplayer server will simply have a frustrating experience.


I agree completely.

#4169558 - 09/16/15 09:54 AM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 122
Antoninus Offline
Member
Antoninus  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 122
I would be not be willing to buy aircraft and campaigns for aircraft I am not interested in, just because the funds might be used for stuff I actually want to have, like new maps.

In Arma, MSFS, Prepar3D or X-Plane you have to pay for each new version with engine upgrades and the next iteration of the global base scenery. I doubt getting work intensive things as detailed maps or the new graphics engine for free while everybody is just cheery picking interesting plane add ons would be sustainable for ED.

#4169643 - 09/16/15 01:20 PM Re: DCS Nevada anouncement soon [Re: Exorcet]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Originally Posted By: Exorcet

This could be a separate topic, but it depends. In the example you gave in particular, 12 years and not finished seems reasonable given the subject (missile performance). They're never going to get it right with foreseeable technology and declassified information. There will always be room for improvement, it's just a matter of priorities.

While I am a big proponent of the change to AFM missiles, I think it could have been handled better. Then again, EDGE is a pretty big priority for a decade + old sim engine, so I can't really say that it's surprising that it was put on the back burner for a while. All of this is said from the outside looking in as well, which should be kept in mind.


Yes, I think at this point they should stop, rip it out, put the Falcon 4 missile code in and call it a day. I don't care if it's any more or less accurate, the modeling in F4 worked for both sides. They were lethal, but not magic.
Never in years of playing F4 did I object to a missile hit or spoof with anywhere near the frequency I have in LOMAC/DCS. They keep changing it, but it stays consistently wrong. If a cake recipe calls for milk and you use water, it won't taste right. Switch the water for cola and yeah, it's going to taste different from before! Still won't taste like it should with milk. However much time they've put into them so far, it appears to all be for nothing because the user experience is pretty much the same. They either don't have or can't find the milk.

I don't accept that NTTR and/or DCS 2/EDGE has put the missiles in the back seat because the missile problem has been around forever by comparison. I think they honestly believe the missiles are close to where they should be.
They've just never tasted milk. frown

Still, NTTR will be good for ground pounding, even if it still falls short if I want to fly the F-15C.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Force10, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Roy Cross is 100 Years Old
by F4UDash4. 04/23/24 11:22 AM
Actors portraying US Presidents
by PanzerMeyer. 04/19/24 12:19 PM
Dickey Betts was 80
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/19/24 01:11 AM
Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
Grumman Wildcat unique landing gear
by Coot. 04/17/24 03:54 PM
Peter Higgs was 94
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/17/24 12:28 AM
Whitey Herzog was 92
by F4UDash4. 04/16/24 04:41 PM
Anyone can tell me what this is?
by NoFlyBoy. 04/16/24 04:10 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0