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#4142452 - 07/03/15 07:28 AM A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type?  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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High over the Front
Doing a mod load that required multiple restarts so I had some time to think.

In some reading I have done a RFC pilot refers to his sidearm, carried in flight, as a "Colt Automatic".
I am not a huge pistolero from this time period but the only "Colt Automatic" I am aware of by memory is the M1911.
Is this what he is referring too? Was this "Automatic" standard issue? I would have guessed a Webley (which, as an aside, I possess in my historical firearms collection) but was it pilot choice for the RFC? You always hear stories about some RFC pilot taking a pistol shot at the foe when the Vickers/Lewis would pack up.

How about the Germans and French? Not that I have a lot on the French but I have never heard they nor the German accounts, which I have more of, mention the subject. I would presume a German would pack some sort of Luger - which I also have in the collection but from WW2. Always optional? Under orders? Not at all?

#4142486 - 07/03/15 11:52 AM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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Hadn't Colt also produced some .380 Autos about that time? Or was that later?
As for the German Pistols, there still was the Mauser C96. One of the most stylish Handguns ever built biggrin ...wasn't really a "Mass-Production", but on the other Hand, there weren't many Pilots in the Beginning, also.

#4142488 - 07/03/15 12:05 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Ah yes have forgotten about the Mauser.
Did German pilots usually carry pistols? Any orders to do so?
And I can check on the .380 (or 9mm Short in some circles) but I don't know if it was that old a round.

#4142489 - 07/03/15 12:06 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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actionjoe Offline
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Nord, France.
It seems that the French also used the Mauser as "Emergency Weapon",here is the story of a fight of Brocard in a Nieuport 10 (monoplace) against an Albatros (two seater) in July 1915. The fight starts with Brocard shooting the Albatros with its Winchester rifle*, wounding the observer(who fell from the aircraft later, during a manoeuver), he continued the fight with a Mauser.*

The Mauser also appears in the list of weapons used in by the Armée d'Orient (14/02/1916)

As these accounts are both early in the war and in a "secondary" theatre where new aircraft and weapons arrived later than in the western front, we can assume that maybe other weapons that the Mauser were used by the French.

*This story is from "Le Temps des Carabines" by René Chambe (observer & pilot during WW1, later Général in the Armée de l'Air)



(Don't you find that "Le Temps des Carabines" will make a great name a WOFF add-on, with rifles for MS/AviatiksB & Nieuport 10?;) )

#4142494 - 07/03/15 12:17 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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The problem with the French language actionjoe is that anything sounds fancy!

And yes the British purchased "Colt Automatics" but it did not specify a caliber but this was in the same paragraph as the .45.
And Colt did make others in this time period and actually before: the .380 mentioned above and the .32 ACP.
Clearly I knew all this at one time and have forgotten. Ah well. Can't remember every darn thing I learned over all these years.
So unless someone has other info guess it will be a Colt M1911 for the RFC.

#4142497 - 07/03/15 12:29 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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So, they used this:



biggrin

#4142506 - 07/03/15 01:05 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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There she is!
Another historical mystery solved.

#4142537 - 07/03/15 02:28 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Hasse Offline
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The Luger P.08 was the German army's official service pistol from 1908 onwards (before that they mostly used revolvers), so I imagine quite a few must have been carried by pilots too.


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#4142560 - 07/03/15 03:36 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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As mentioned above, the Brits bought the M1911. They also bought the Springfield M1903 chambered for their .303. My Great-Uncle had one of these numbered 12.

I have no info, but given that the P08 Luger was the official pistol, I would imagine a German pilot was far more likely to have one than the 1896 Mauser "Broomhandle".

I've read that Frank Luke Jr used to carry a .45 revolver {or two}.

#4142564 - 07/03/15 03:44 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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See? Always learn something here.
I was not aware Springfield '03's were purchased by the British in .303 caliber. Or if I was I forgot...hehe
Do you know why?
Was it to off-set a shortage of Lee-Enfields?
The '03 was (and still is) a fine weapon!

#4142586 - 07/03/15 04:50 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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@rockmedic:
Yeah! Shooting two Revolvers simultaneously while flying a Plane spartasign

#4142757 - 07/04/15 07:23 AM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Duke-
As I understood it, the Brits didn't have enough Enfields and contracted for the Springfields. They wanted the .303 so they could use their own ammo. I do not know if this was temporary or if they were short of resources or the Brits needed their industry working on something else.

Nietzche---
From what I've read he used to fire his revolver while in the air. And from the stories that circulate about him, he was certainly crazy enough to fire both {I cannot remember if I read that he did, I think so but can't remember--it's hell getting old}. And I would not be surprised at all if he hit his target.

#4142935 - 07/04/15 06:57 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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#4142941 - 07/04/15 07:10 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Thanks carrick58.
Nice vids. I wish I could remember everything I have learned over my lifetime.
But back to the "Colt Automatic"! Which one?
RAF_Louvert where are you? This technical trivia is usually your speciality.

#4143182 - 07/05/15 09:04 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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yep


I agree, RAF Lou is the answer man. My guess would be a 32 cal.

To confuse the issue there were numerous FN Browning autos floating around during that time. They also fired 32 Cal (7.65mm) and 25 Cal.

Last edited by carrick58; 07/05/15 09:12 PM.
#4143185 - 07/05/15 09:11 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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When piloting an early Aviatik I'd be happy with bricks or a sling shot.
That is the fun of being the mouse. yep

#4143189 - 07/05/15 09:23 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Now I'm thinking of my old 1899 Swedish Mauser , 6.5 x 55 , Oberndorf A/N
Flat shooting, reminds me of a 25.06

#4143940 - 07/07/15 08:38 PM Re: A little OT: Pilot sidearms? Type? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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thumbsup

1899 Swedish Mauser is the Ticket, Old Man.


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