I think I'm doomed... I just purchased a DCS switch from a chap on the ViperPits boards and it should be in my trembling hands by next week.

I'm planning on building a ICP panel for BMS, but I know that's just going to be the start of yet another adventure in pit building and simming. However, this is my very first attempt at making a physical button/switch setup and I have very little clue about things.

Firstly, I know of the Leo Bodnar board but I wonder for those that make panels or button boxes here, but what other alternatives exist? What are YOU using in your setup?

Second, what kind of wire is best to use for a project like this?


I already have a wire stripper, soldering rod, lead, and a few bits and pieces, but I plan to make the panel out of MDF. Which brings me to my next problem: how to cut square holes in the MDF face....

Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I suspect Sokol will give you a far better answer on the electronics than I would. As to the square hole...

Well, there's probably what most would consider the conventional way:


Then here is another way, using a different type of power tool:


I don't know how easy it would be to get a narrower blade in order to make smaller sized holes...

Beyond that, there are more complicated ways, but one of those is probably your best bet.

If you are in UK the BU0836 is good choice, as have free shipping for there.

You find USB cards capable of handle more buttons, some above 100 - for more than 32 (Windows limitation) keymapper is required - or with some specific functions.

Desktop Aviator model 2120 has ability to handle toggle (ON-OFF) switch as momentary, but less buttons:

http://www.desktopaviator.com/Products/Model_2160-2170/

Dereksparkdesign has one for control buttons only - no axis - capable to handle 64 buttons, no diode matrix required:

http://www.derekspearedesigns.com/64-button-no-matrix-controller.html

See the documentation for usage: http://www.derekspearedesigns.com/technical-guide.html

Over DCS board a guy sell one similar, 128 or more buttons.

Some flight games are not designed to handle continuous ON switch, they expect momentary key press, but keymapper deal with this.

Probable is better you define first what kind of switchs plan use before define the USB controller.

This type of cable is good option, as have different colors:

http://www.protostack.com/cables/ribbon-cable-40-conductor-1.4mm-pitch-1-meter
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10647

Dont know if this still existing, but HDD 40 vias flat cables are good source of wire.

The cheap DIY MMJoy controller - topic there - fit for the most needs of flight games.

also a great card....

http://simple-solutions.de/shop/index.php?cPath=2_9_13

Carh451, good find.

Interesting features in this Arcaze, like macros storage in EEPROM, trigger on press and release the key.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9TOEW3yDw8

Thanks for the replies!!

Hmmm... Desktop Aviator can only do 10 switches (20 keys)... I have no idea how to make a matrix or how to wire it so that's out of the question for now.

The Bodnar board has been a strong possibility but I wonder if there are similar options available that are better or cheaper. As the Bodnar board does 55 or so keys, I guess keymapper is required anyway.

My current plans call for mostly buttons, toggle switches and rockers, and maybe one or two rotary encoders. I'm building the ICP panel, Misc panel (master arm, laser arm, autopilot), and left aux console (landing gear, lights, countermeasures) for the F-16 pit.

Bodnar boards, BU0836A (diode matrix required), BU0836X (no matrix require, double price), BBI32 (buttons only, matrix required), all handle up to 32 buttons or encoders (2 buttons per encoder) - they use the Windows limit, to make desnecessary use keymapers and just plug and use.

Ice,

Try this link too. It's Check Six, in French, but the products are titled in English. Maybe something here can spark an idea.

Cheers,

FC

[url=http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=286&t=135766&sid=e244abd6e1cac1a0e94e28ef99600100][/url]

I have used a Bodnar board with push-in terminals for my Trim/Buttonbox. I've never done anything like that before,means conecting buttons,wiring them up etc. It was very easy to do,planning the layout and making the box was the "hardest" part of the project. Only thing I had to solder where wires to some of the Buttons. Fortunally there is no need to solder anything to the board itself.

I can not compare with other boards but I can recommend the Bodnars because I ,as a beginner , found it easy to use.

Yeah, that was the main attraction of the 836X Bodnar board, being easy to use.



I'm a bit lost here.... the 836X board can do 32 buttons (due to Windows limitations) or can do up to 55 with keymapper, correct?

BU0836X is the same BU0836A controller and thus handle up 32 buttons (+1 8 way HAT and 8 axis 12 bits).

Notice in the top and lower right side of the BU0836X board the connectors labeled GND-B1...GND-B32, each par handle one button.

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/BU0836Xlarge.jpg

BU0836X has just added multiplexer chips and connector terminals (so cost ~twice) to avoid the need of diode matrix,
(what is easy to do).

Since is not possible do a "button box/cockpit" avoiding do solder in switchs, rotarys... make a diode matrix involve do 2 extra solder in each pole of each used diode per wire.

With BU0836A you dont make solder in controller board terminals - what can kill then - solder wires in a furnished connector bar that after plug in the board.

This could be of interest aswell http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80201 ,don't know how easy or hard it is to conect stuff. Atleast for me it looks a bit confusing.

Deepest apologies, Sokol1 but I'm really having a hard time understanding what you are saying.

Okay, the Bodnar board A and X are the same in capability but the X version does not need a matrix, is that what you are saying?

Also, what does the "8 analog inputs, 32 button, 8 way PoV hat" mean? I thought that meant "8+32+8=48" so it can do 48 buttons (I can't remember where I got 55 from). Are you saying there is no way to use the analog inputs or the PoV as buttons?

If the Bodnar board can only do 32 buttons, then I definitely want to go with something else.... for a little bit more, that B256A13 sounds like a better deal. My rough estimate of doing the F-16 ICP, landing gear panel, misc panel, and CMDS panel needs at least 65 inputs and I don't really want to buy 2 Bodnar boards just for this.

Ice, doing a search in these forums, I ran across an old post from f15sim (Gene B.):
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3714021/Re:_HELP:_Arduino_UNO_board_ma#Post3714021



Looking at Macetech:

http://macetech.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=23

That may be more monkeying around than you want to get into. In which case, if Byrdling is still selling his B256A13 (that Lausbub78 mentioned earlier), that might be easier, with room for more expansion later, too.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80201

Good luck with it!

Wow... I just looked up my old ED forums private messages and I did indeed contact brydling about this very item back in 2011. How time flies! I do remember I was very impressed with his help so this looks like a very strong candidate for what I will be using for my pit.

Thanks for the help CyBerkut! I'm afraid I'm so new to this I don't really know what terms to search for. Indeed, that Macetech item.... I'm not even sure what it does and why I would consider using it.

YW.

As I understand it, that Centipede shield connects to a compatible Arduino (an Uno, for instance) and provides a means to get 64 General Purpose Input/Output (aka GPIO) pins (using 1 Centipede), or 128 GPIO pins (using 2 of the Centipede boards). You would also probably use the Centipede Breakout boards listed on that page to ease the wiring to the actual buttons/switches. (part of the extra stuff to mess with, I was referring to). The other thing is you would have to get up to speed on how to use an Arduino as a USB HID which is not the default state of an Arduino board. It is not insurmountable, but it is a learning curve to climb. If you value your time, you are probably better off sticking with Bodnar or Byrdling types of solutions. They may cost more than buying some low cost Arduino compatible stuff, but should be more straightforward to setup and use.

Yes.



8 analog inputs = 8 axis inputs to plug potentiometer, HALL sensor... No switchs/buttons can be connected there.

32 buttons + 8 way POV HAT = BU0836 get the buttons scanning a combination of 6 x 6 (=36 positions) lines and columns,
32 positions reserved for press buttons, 4 for POV HAT (like the conventional HAT to control camera in joysticks):



But the 4 positions reserved for POV HAT - # 33, 34, 35, 36 (N-E-S-W) be pressing 2 at same time given 4 more intermediate angles: NE-SE-SW-NW, so the 4 physical buttons allow more 4 virtual buttons (8 way HAT).

In this 4 positions reserved for HAT you can connect 4 switchs ("HAT" in joystick is only 4 switchs around a pole), and then have 32+4=36 switchs connected to one BU0836.

In theory, using diodes - to avoid signal return - you can use this 4 virtual buttons as single press and have a total of 40 press buttons connected in one BU0836. Is a little puzzling set this.

BTW - Here in SimHQ are a topic in what the guy combine the outputs of BU0836X with additional diode matrix board and get the double (or more) buttons available, but the additional cost to make the matrix board, the time and complication worth buy (IMO) a extra BU0836 or Dereksparkdesign BoardZilla card that handle 64 buttons (60$), without diode matrix..

Look: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3366327/1.html

Yeah.... doing that matrix bit may be a fun exercise in soldering but I don't think I have the time or skill to do that. However, even the BoardZilla comes up short with the number of inputs I need.

Cy, your last post just totally went over my head, mate.

Sorry Ice.

I'd just say, to keep things simpler... you should probably plan on using 2 of whatever board you settle upon (Bodnar, or whatever), and splitting your planned panels up between them. Unless you find a single board that can handle all of the inputs you need, you're looking at a lot of messing around to squeeze more inputs into a single board.

The bit about the Arduino... Your typical joystick/HOTAS is seen by your computer as a USB/HID (USB Human Interface device). It will either have manufacturer supplied drivers, or will be plug 'n play with MicroSoft's drivers that are included in the Operating System.

An Arduino (Uno, for instance) is not a USB/HID device as it comes out of the box. You have to do some extra programming in order to make it be seen as a USB/HID... then you can use the card (and its inputs) like a joystick/HOTAS.

Arduino based solutions are very flexible / powerful for the cost in currency. The tradeoff is that to do things like what you seek to do, you have to spend time climbing the learning curve. I suspect you could do that if you really wanted to, but I get the impression you'd prefer a more direct route. That's a perfectly legitimate approach to take. Some folks want to know more about how things tick inside the black box, while others prefer to get the task done and move on to the next challenge. It's just a matter of tradeoffs, and what fits your goals best.

At this point, I just want the job done and get back to flying. Unfortunately, my hobby is flying virtual airplanes, not electronics

With MMJoy Firmware - loaded through USB cable a ~10$ Arduino Pro Micro became a HID joystick controller, with inputs for 64 buttons + 6 encoders, 8 axis (14 bits), 8 way HAT.

Preach it, brother!

Just remember, I'm sitting with the choir. Ice is out there in the pews.

Seriously though, Ice... two of those Arduino Pro Micro boards and a bit of time learning to use MMJoy can get you there at low cost (leaves more money for buying other stuff/sims/plane modules). And there is a good MMJoy thread running here at SimHQ, that can be very helpful. Sokol wouldn't lead you astray!

Let me steer the conversation in another direction for a bit --- wiring. What types of wires should I be looking at when connecting my switches/buttons/etc. to whatever board I am using? Are certain types of wires better than others?

As for MMJoy, I've seen that thread but largely ignored it because I don't understand it.
The first post alone was so I couldn't really appreciate what it can do.

Your choice of board may narrow down your better choices on that.

I like multi-colored flat ribbon cable.

- Look at your selected board(s) to see what connectors can be used with them.
- Then look to see if there are crimp on connectors of that type available.
- Then select ribbon cable that is compatible with those crimp on connectors.

Connectors may not be a possibility for some boards... Bodnar's BU0836X boards, for instance, have you pushing your wires into the connector that is already on the board. Even then, though, having a multi-colored ribbon cable can make it easier to keep track of which wire is for what button, etc.

Well, I assume I can separate the flat ribbon cable into pairs of wires, right?

£4 for a meter - on this store

Or even cheaper on eBay

MMjoy2 first post edited, please see if became more understandable, ignore the obsolete part.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3899105/MMJoy/Mmjoy2_-_Build_your_own_#Post3899105

From what I understand now, MMjoy2 is a board that needs a firmware flash and a 8x8 matrix so that it can handle 64 buttons, otherwise it only has 8 buttons, 6 encoders, 8 rotaries, and an 8-way hat, is that correct?

Your "compatible arduino boards" links are 404 btw.

I really need to investigate this "matrix" thing. I think I got the basic idea but "understanding" and "working model" are two very different things in my experience.

Hi Ice,
I worked in electronics once and have used the matrix system for several designs so I'll try and explain how it works.

If you think of a piece of graph paper with 8 lines drawn across and 8 lines drawn vertically. Where each crossed would be where you would put a switch connecting the vertical (column) to the horizontal (row).

The controller sends a pulse or voltage on to the first column and then checks all the rows in turn to see if any of them have the pulse or voltage. If it has, that is registered. If not, it checks the next row and so on. At the end of the 8 rows it moves the pulse/voltage to the next column and checks the rows again.

At the end of a complete scan (8 rows times 8 columns = 64 possible key presses) the process is repeated constantly. Remember this is going on at a very high speed. That's how the controller gets confirmation that a key has been pressed.

Now the 8 columns and 8 rows if drawn side by side would give us 16 binary digits that can be 0 or 1. So when the controller detects a pulse/voltage on a row it takes a note of the binary code on the columns/rows and that is then used to make a keycode.

You sometimes see key matrices with diodes in line with the switch. A diode only conducts in one direction so the pulse/voltage can only go from the column to the row.

If you accidentally pressed 2 keys at the same time you would end up with a code that was not what it should be for either of the keys. That's because, without the diodes to block it the pulse/voltage could travel from one column across one switch along a row to another column and via that to another row. That's what the diodes are there to stop.

I hope this makes sense to you and helps your understanding. Trust me it's harder to try and explain that actually build.

Cheers,

Andy

No, a Arduino board without a program (firmware) is nothing for the computer, you need flash the firmware - did from someone or write your own - to the board became a device for the computer. And not all Arduino board has USB support (the liked ones has).

Links - for postage bellow in that page - fixed.

Matrix for Dummies.


free photo hosting

In this example, you have a 6 column x 2 rows wiring a 4 buttons and (POV) HAT to BU0836 (from the possible 12 positions (6x2) was used 8).

The diodes in one pole of each switch avoid that be pressing 2, 3 button at same time a a 4th "ghost" button became on.

Notice that in this example some column wires (green, light blue) goes for 2 different switchs. Is this the trick:

In a full (6x6) matrix each column wire goes for 6 (not 36 as before) switch poles and each row wire goes for 6 switch poles.

Highly advisable use colored wires to do this.

Haha! Thanks for the help guys!

I think I know how the matrix works... in theory. Basically, in a 8x8 matrix, row 1 can work for 8 switches, row 2 can work for 8 switches, and so on until row 8. Like this:

R1, C1
R1, C2
R1, C3
....
R1, C8

then

R2, C1
R2, C2
R2, C3
....
R2, C8

I think that's right so far.

It's the actual "how do I build this damn thing" that worries me.


Sokol,
So an Arduino board is like a blank slate, yes? By itself it is nothing, but depends on the firmware, it can be anything. Is that right?

As for your picture... I see the gray/blue wire is the ground?? Then I see two switches has a blue and green wire that goes to the switch and into the hat as well. Why does the yellow and orange not have this?

Correctly.



In Matrix you dont think in ground wire (or signal) only "columns" and "lines".

Ground (+5V and signal) is only for axis input - see this potentiometer wired in left side in other row of connector (ANALOG INPUTS).



Because the yellow and orange are "columns" - C1 and C2 - not used by HAT.

HAT use

C3 - green
C4 - blue light
C5 - blue dark
C6 - purple

x

R6 - orange

HAT need be wired in this specific positions because there 2 buttons pressed at same time, e.g. N+E, press the intermediary NE, this is defined in firmware.

When you add more switch's to this matrix, you see that this yellow and orange goes for another switch's poles, wired together by other column (like the R-1 did with S1, S2, S3, S4). This is exemplified be C3 and C4.

In the same way this orange R6 that goes for HAT goes for 2 additional switch's.

And all 4 column that goes for HAT - C3, C4, C5, C6 - goes for other 5 switch each in a full occupied matrix.

For example C6 goes for S30, S24, S18, S12, S6.

As AndyB say above this is more easy to practice than explain.

Easy Matrix for MMjoy