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#4135266 - 06/17/15 11:45 AM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: cdelucia]  
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Originally Posted By: cdelucia
I can hear VEAO's response now: ". . . specifically stated product is in BETA state."


Which is true.

Originally Posted By: cdelucia

Which brings me to my next point: perma-beta . . .


THIS is the big problem! ED should give a deadline to 3rd party devs to finish a product. But ED himself does not give the best example as we all know...

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#4135339 - 06/17/15 01:41 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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FYI, VEAO just announced that all Hawk purchases will be upgraded to the EFM free of charge, and people who purchased the EFM in advance will receive a $10 coupon for a future product.

Now there's no issues of upgrading Steam versions, feelings of bait and switch, etc.


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#4135368 - 06/17/15 02:12 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Yes, the eternal beta is a big problem with BSTs modules.

As I said, some of ED's stuff is better than others, so while the MiG 21 is great, it's not quite Ka-50/A-10C. It's still a lot better than some of ED's other stuff that hasn't quite lived up to its potential yet...like Combined Arms.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4135405 - 06/17/15 02:47 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Originally Posted By: SUBS_17

Just a few things to mention the VEAO Hawk has 2 versions the first one is EFM the 2nd has PFM.


That is just plain incorrect. The first one is SFM (Simple Flight Model), to follow is an EFM (External Flight Model) to PFM (Professional Flight Model) standards.


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#4135515 - 06/17/15 05:07 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Yes, the eternal beta is a big problem with BSTs modules.

As I said, some of ED's stuff is better than others, so while the MiG 21 is great, it's not quite Ka-50/A-10C. It's still a lot better than some of ED's other stuff that hasn't quite lived up to its potential yet...like Combined Arms.



The Jedi Master


True, can't find it now, but iirc I think when asked what's next after the MiG-15 the answer was basically, finishing what they had already released.

I find the reviews here about the Hawk a bit discouraging, think I'm going to wait a bit on the P-40 once it is released even though I am really looking forward to it.

#4135551 - 06/17/15 05:38 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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If BST is going to finish up all their existing released modules, that gets a big thumbsup from me.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4135568 - 06/17/15 05:51 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: cichlidfan
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17

Just a few things to mention the VEAO Hawk has 2 versions the first one is EFM the 2nd has PFM.


That is just plain incorrect. The first one is SFM (Simple Flight Model), to follow is an EFM (External Flight Model) to PFM (Professional Flight Model) standards.


So the EFM is different from the PFM? I thought it was the same thing. Nice that they're including it in previous sales though.


Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Yes, the eternal beta is a big problem with BSTs modules.

As I said, some of ED's stuff is better than others, so while the MiG 21 is great, it's not quite Ka-50/A-10C. It's still a lot better than some of ED's other stuff that hasn't quite lived up to its potential yet...like Combined Arms.



The Jedi Master


In particular complaints? From what I have seen it seems to be just as good as the ED Modules. I don't recall if the tutorials had voice overs, but they worked well enough for me.

Not sure what can be done, but ED does need to ensure some more quality control when it comes to betas.

#4135583 - 06/17/15 06:09 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Simple. The Ka-50 and A-10C, in addition to totally simulating the aircraft, came with a terrain and dozens of ground objects, ships, and non-flyable aircraft with working airfields to use.

In subsequent modules, ED already had that stuff and were just making a plane. For the first two, though, they had to create the entire world that the aircraft lived in as well.

Now, if the MiG-21 had included a late Vietnam-era terrain in the Middle East or Asia with period-specific units and non-flyable AI aircraft, THEN it would've been equal to the A-10C and Ka-50. Naturally they were not capable of doing that, because of ED's own internal delays on EDGE if nothing else, but it did mean less work.

You may be separating those two from the total packages, but that is minimizing the work ED actually put into those until DCS World itself was released.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4135627 - 06/17/15 07:23 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
If BST is going to finish up all their existing released modules, that gets a big thumbsup from me.



The Jedi Master


They merged some threads so I can't find exactly what I was looking for but did find this part of it.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2362120&postcount=27

I personally don't have much issue with the BST modules, the F86 and MiG-15 seemed to be pretty complete as far as the actual plane part goes, only really noticed the lacking bits in manuals, missions, that kind of thing. I don't have the MI-8 and haven't touched the Huey yet so can't comment there. But actually I've been pretty pleased with everything I got at the start. Having things get finished though would be great, although nothing is ever really finished anymore though.

Last edited by Mudcat; 06/17/15 07:31 PM.
#4135633 - 06/17/15 07:30 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Don't know about the Sabre, but recent updates in their "Mi-8 news" thread clearly show the Hip has been getting some devs attention again. Releasing full manual for MiG-15 was a very nice surprise as well.

#4135709 - 06/17/15 10:50 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted By: cichlidfan
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17

Just a few things to mention the VEAO Hawk has 2 versions the first one is EFM the 2nd has PFM.


That is just plain incorrect. The first one is SFM (Simple Flight Model), to follow is an EFM (External Flight Model) to PFM (Professional Flight Model) standards.


I did mention below that typo:
Just a few things to mention the VEAO Hawk has 2 versions the first one is EFM the 2nd has PFM. The other thing is you should be able to map your view commands in the setup for DCS. VEAOs plans are to setup a realistic pilot training program with real Hawk pilots involved in setting up this course:

All aircraft will be developed with full ASM and EFM to PFM standards (PFM where we can get them to that level).



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#4135713 - 06/17/15 11:01 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Some good news:



Dear All,
I have had lengthy discussions with the VEAO team and ED this morning and we have come to an agreement regarding the confusion over SFM vs EFM and what has been purchased on ED store and Steam.

Any customers that have purchased the "Hawk T.1A for DCS World" from the ED store will automatically receive an upgrade to the External Flight Model (EFM) version at the time of release, free-of-charge.

Any customers that have purchased the "Hawk for DCS World" on Steam will automatically receive an upgrade to the External Flight Model (EFM) version at the time of release, free-of-charge.

Any customers that have purchased the "DCS:Hawk (EFM) Beta (Pre-sale)" on VEAO Simulations website will automatically receive an upgrade to the External Flight Model (EFM) version at the time of release and will also receive a coupon code via email giving them $10 discount on future products in the VEAO DCS: World catalogue.

The coupon will only be valid for customers that have purchased the EFM pre-sale version of Hawk directly from VEAO as they have already paid for the $10 upgrade price from SFM to EFM.

We felt that this was the fairest way to level all products bought.

If you have any further questions please post here or email support@veaosimulations.co.uk

Thanks,
Chris.


Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4135259#ixzz3dMa7cnNC
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http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2415691&postcount=1

Silver dragon already posted it but I'll repeat it here as its relevant to this topic.



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#4135748 - 06/18/15 12:08 AM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Seems fair. I bought the EFM/SFM +$10 package back when. I think of it similar to buying something not on sale that subsequently goes on sale, the price of early adoption. I did think at the time that having two products instead of one was cutting the customer base a little too thinly. I wonder how many people bought the SFM version vs. the EFM.

#4135832 - 06/18/15 03:54 AM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Frederf]  
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I also think that this is fair from them. Got the EFM Version directly from their side.

Originally Posted By: Frederf
I wonder how many people bought the SFM version vs. the EFM.


I just can't imagine that anyone really only want to have the SFM in ANY DCS plane. Maybe someone who never experienced an airplane with EFM (AFM) before but this person clearly doesn't know what he/she's missing.


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#4135838 - 06/18/15 04:29 AM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Sweet, I'll use that 10 additional bucks to pre-order the P-40 once it's available on the VEAO store.

#4136167 - 06/18/15 06:51 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Simple. The Ka-50 and A-10C, in addition to totally simulating the aircraft, came with a terrain and dozens of ground objects, ships, and non-flyable aircraft with working airfields to use.

In subsequent modules, ED already had that stuff and were just making a plane. For the first two, though, they had to create the entire world that the aircraft lived in as well.

Now, if the MiG-21 had included a late Vietnam-era terrain in the Middle East or Asia with period-specific units and non-flyable AI aircraft, THEN it would've been equal to the A-10C and Ka-50. Naturally they were not capable of doing that, because of ED's own internal delays on EDGE if nothing else, but it did mean less work.

You may be separating those two from the total packages, but that is minimizing the work ED actually put into those until DCS World itself was released.



The Jedi Master


I see what you're saying. Though to be fair, the Bis was in service alongside Su-27s and the other modern equipment in the game. I think it was finally retired in the early 90s. So while out dated, you can argue it does have an appropriate map & assets.

The AI F-5E does look ugly, but it can be considered a counterpart. But some Mirage 3s, SA-2s, SA-3s and other 60s-70s equipment that is more on par with the 21Bis would be ideal.

#4136233 - 06/18/15 08:35 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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It may have served, but I think we can agree it was totally outclassed. smile The bis is a 70s plane that could hold its own into the early 80s, but against even F-16As and F-15As I'd think discretion would be the better part of valor and bugging out would be the best idea!

Yes, a flyable F-5E would make a perfect opponent for it, the AI one is a little barebones but I suppose no worse than the AI 15bis for the 86 or the AI D9 for the P-51, until both of those became flyable.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4136238 - 06/18/15 08:43 PM Re: Buyers remose. Last VEAO & probably DCS plane I buy (Hawk) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
Title says it all. The Hawk was such a disappointment I may never buy another DCS plane again.
[..]


Why did you have buy it in the first place?

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