#4129172 - 06/04/15 05:27 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
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To me, it all connects to the pre-alpha-beta routine excercised by devs of today. With EF2000, Falcon4 etc. you got a "done" product with room for a patch or 3 along with documents that was more than inspiring to read and really got you in the mood before firing up the simgame. (anyone saying he didnt read them sitting on the house-throne is a lier ) Today most "first encounters" with the (sim)games results in some shortness or a yawn but always a downer. Quite contrary to what one is/was used to. With promises it will be better if I just wait a year it all runs down to that the title gets this negative wibe long before it's finished (with room for a patch or 3). "It's only a beta" is the standard response but all in all, it hurts the title no matter what reasonable excuse is being served. I'd rather wait and be served a full title but such releases are hard to find in these sorrow days or quick bucks. But I aint bitter.
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#4129200 - 06/04/15 06:06 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: theOden]
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,943
Nate
Member
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Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,943
Dublin, Ireland
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To me, it all connects to the pre-alpha-beta routine excercised by devs of today. I can see the point you're making. However I don't think people are prepared to wait for such an event as a Product that goes "Gold". Given the option, now possible given modern methods of distribution, most will opt to purchase before a product is Gold. Were that option removed, and products only released to the public after reaching Gold status, I would expect much more bitter complaining and vitriol that is currently endured. Buying products early comes with risk it must be said, you are after all paying for something you haven't got yet. If that risk is unacceptable, perhaps it is best to wait until the full product is offered, in order to make an informed choice. Nate
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#4129203 - 06/04/15 06:12 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 24,030
oldgrognard
Administrator
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Administrator
Lifer
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 24,030
USA
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I think a lot of it is related to when flight sims first started coming out we were just happy to have virtually anything. From nothing to something was a big jump for us and we found great joy in them despite any faults. We had a flight sim. We could actually "fly" the old fighter planes. We could maneuver and shoot things down. It was great. Then we became jaded and wanted more and better. Then we started arguing over different faults and expectations. We were no longer happy to have something. We wanted perfect. So the arguing started.
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
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#4129205 - 06/04/15 06:14 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: oldgrognard]
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,390
PanzerMeyer
Pro-Consul of Florida
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Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,390
Miami, FL USA
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I think a lot of it is related to when flight sims first started coming out we were just happy to have virtually anything. From nothing to something was a big jump for us and we found great joy in them despite any faults. We had a flight sim. We could actually "fly" the old fighter planes. We could maneuver and shoot things down. It was great. Then we became jaded and wanted more and better. Then we started arguing over different faults and expectations. We were no longer happy to have something. We wanted perfect. So the arguing started. +1 Seriously, I know many of us here have been playing flight sims for over 20 years now. It's difficult to keep an open and fresh attitude with the genre when you've been involved with it for so long.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#4129212 - 06/04/15 06:28 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Force10]
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla
Skate Zilla Graphics
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Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
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I thought their original offer was more then fair, since they had zero obligation Hmmm...well, their name was on the kickstarter. Built by industry veterans with the same approach that made the famous flight sims of the past great, and in partnership with the experts at the Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics We don't need to open that whole can of worms again. It just showed kinda of a sketchy hole in the kickstarter program. With this precedent, what's to stop someone from exploiting it: 1. Create a dummy company A in partnership with real company B 2. Company A creates all kinds exciting rewards to entice the money to flow in 3. Company A disappears and then Company B "swoops" in to save the day 4. Company B then changes rewards to maximize profits Not saying this is what happened with DCS WWII...but it's still taking customers investment and changing the terms that the money was originally invested with. And yes...we know that all money invested might have been lost...BUT...it's the fact that ED did this without even asking the people that invested in the project. Or, maybe they could do it because as the launch info stated, they were partnered with Luthier. Meh...it's all said and done now anyway. Partnership was: A. ED Provided the Simulation Engine and Support for it. B. TFC Provided access to the real aircraft for R&D C. ED Developed the AFMs (according to KS page). It was Ilya/Luthier/RRGs responsibility to build and develop the content for the engine ED provided. RRG went bye bye for undiclosed reasons, ED brought in RRGs employees to.finish the work. This didnt happen over night, look at Luthiers last substantial content or progress update (note his blog type updates on kickstarter that have zero DCS WWII content in them, but are about his internet, fireplace whatever dont count). He was silent for a month+ before ED made the announcement on the forums. As for Moderators combing through the millions of posts a day to look for whatever to.delete, a good Majority of the Posts that get deleted are reported by other members of the board via the report post button. So blame us for deleting them, and claiming we are criticism police, but you guys need to see that a majority of the posts are reported by other members. As for E stalking, I could careless what you post here, or anywhere else, until the information is not correct or it relates to myself. You can passionately hate ED/DCS all you want, thats your opinion and your decision, but dont get angry with me and claim Im doing the opposite because of my status with ED. My status with ED has no influence on my opinions. My status is what it is because I choose it to be, I choose to help better dcs by testing, developing, modding, etc.
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#4129215 - 06/04/15 06:32 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Dart]
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
EinsteinEP
Just a Noob
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Just a Noob
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
Tucson, AZ
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You know, enthusiasts looking to get the most enjoyment out of it. Instead we get a consumer complaint line. I want to have this whole post engraved and hung on my wall. Well said, Dart!
Shoot to Kill. Play to Have Fun.
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#4129225 - 06/04/15 07:00 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim
Member
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Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
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ED Forum rules, 1.13 specifically. Now, who will pretend that with rules as those, ED moderators who turn up at SimHQ are "just fellow consumers"? How does it make for an joyful, constructive climate here when people know for a fact that ED forum mods who turn up here will act like that here as well by punishing people if they're "out of line". If it'd be the other way around, if forum members here would troll ED representatives in MP by e.g. friendly firing them, would they be happy when they start debating with said forum members here? If that's the rules they're going to play by over there, then it's up to them. But how can anyone not expect that to agitate people who find that they can't even debate here without getting punished by people who actually claim to be here as constructive sim enthusiasts?
Last edited by scrim; 06/04/15 07:02 PM.
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#4129226 - 06/04/15 07:01 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
bogusheadbox
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
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Opinionated Aussie Bloke
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
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I cant help but wonder about the sentiments that many say that this is a niche, dying, dried up market.
I think absolutely to the contrary.
You know, I really don't agree that a flight sim / combat sim / study sim is a dying or dried up market.
its just that no one wants to put real money up front fund its development AAA style.
I really do think there is a massive market out there to be grabbed. We know there is a passionate following. It wouldn't be hard at all to draw in a swath a new blood.
To do that, you need fresh material of varying degrees of complexity, you need marketing and you need what you build to do what it says on the tin and not be released 5 years as a beta.
Out of all the plane nuts I know of, hardly any if any at all know what DCS is. All they know is FSX or x plane and have no idea that combat or study sims even exist (outside of the real sim of course).
As for too much negativity..... No, I don't think so. If you think heated discussion with no agreeable middle ground is negativity, then I say you are mistaken.
We disagree and argue because we all want something to come out of the product weather you are a naysayer or a yaysayer.
If we didn't argue, that would mean we wouldn't give a rats arse at all about the product and THAT is when you should start worrying about it.
Last edited by bogusheadbox; 06/04/15 07:05 PM.
Fighterops...
The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.
Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
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#4129231 - 06/04/15 07:12 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: SkateZilla]
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
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As for Moderators combing through the millions of posts a day to look for whatever to.delete, a good Majority of the Posts that get deleted are reported by other members of the board via the report post button.
you know that is not what happens - the bulk of it is done as a company policy and that is a fact.
So blame us for deleting them, and claiming we are criticism police, but you guys need to see that a majority of the posts are reported by other members.
...
As for E stalking, I could careless what you post here, or anywhere else, until the information is not correct or it relates to myself.
you harass people here by using our posting rights as an excuse to ban people in your forum You can passionately hate ED/DCS all you want, thats your opinion and your decision, but dont get angry with me and claim Im doing the opposite because of my status with ED. My status with ED has no influence on my opinions.
no one hates ED/DCS - we dislike individuals and disagree with some of the attitudes and actions of the developer. You can passionately hate ED/DCS
again - in a nutshell the root of the problem , who cares about ED/DCS ? we care about the unfinished products and broken promises.
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#4129234 - 06/04/15 07:14 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Peally
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Wisconsin, USA
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Such an incredible amount of energy to devote to outrage over 60 bucks.
Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds. Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
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#4129237 - 06/04/15 07:17 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Peally]
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
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Such an incredible amount of energy to devote to outrage over 60 bucks. I think you need to read the arguments one more time.
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#4129238 - 06/04/15 07:21 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Tom_Weiss]
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla
Skate Zilla Graphics
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Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
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As for Moderators combing through the millions of posts a day to look for whatever to.delete, a good Majority of the Posts that get deleted are reported by other members of the board via the report post button.
you know that is not what happens - the bulk of it is done as a company policy and that is a fact.
So blame us for deleting them, and claiming we are criticism police, but you guys need to see that a majority of the posts are reported by other members. [quote=Para_Bellum]
I don't know why don't you guys own up to what you do - you delete, edit and ban people because you want to do it, no one is urging you to do that.
[quote=SkateZilla]
As for E stalking, I could careless what you post here, or anywhere else, until the information is not correct or it relates to myself.
you harass people here by using our posting rights as an excuse to ban people in your forum You can passionately hate ED/DCS all you want, thats your opinion and your decision, but dont get angry with me and claim Im doing the opposite because of my status with ED. My status with ED has no influence on my opinions.
no one hates ED/DCS - we dislike individuals and disagree with some of the attitudes and actions of the developer. You can passionately hate ED/DCS
again - in a nutshell the root of the problem , who cares about ED/DCS ? we care about the unfinished products and broken promises. I just want to point out, I was posting and publishing reviews here for a decade before I even. Installed an ED/DCS title. I originally registered in 1999, that account was lost in a database glitch or something in 2004, and I made a new account. So to assume I use my posting here to harrass ppl and ban them else where is a flawed theory Personally speaking your ban and the details about it occured before I was even part of anything with ED, but lets not get into it. Suggest you goto my Screenname, and click view posts and start from the beginning, Im not here to harrass anyone, banned from ED or not makes no difference. I am friends on social media with a good dozen plus that were banned from ED, simply put, grow up, if you were banned from ED for a good reason, dont be bitter about it everywhere you go.. do you bark at the starbucks barista if she wasnt banned from EDs boards? This isnt ED boards, so why does it matter if you were banned there? Im involved with more than just ED, I never was confronted and blamed for things for being a part of Moderation or testing teams for Microsoft, Xbox, AMD, Turn10/Forza, Janes/EA, etc. So in my perspective, and perspective of others that have communicated w/ me through other means, some members use My Status w/ ED as an Excuse and Means to harrass me.
Last edited by SkateZilla; 06/04/15 07:32 PM.
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#4129240 - 06/04/15 07:26 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: tagTaken2]
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
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Personally speaking your band and the details about it occured before I was even part of anything with ED, but lets not get into it. I don't run a music band ??? I run a website not a children's creche - people are what they are, I can only answer for my own actions. as for supporting Eagle Dynamics - my actions speak for themselves So to assume I use my posting here to harrass ppl and ban them else where is a flawed theory. unfortunately things are what they are - many of your "band" come here only to harass people, me specially.
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#4129243 - 06/04/15 07:28 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: theOden]
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Peally
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Wisconsin, USA
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Such an incredible amount of energy to devote to outrage over 60 bucks. I think you need to read the arguments one more time. I think I couldn't care less, it's 60 bucks. People complain like they're being told they need to submit to martial law.
Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds. Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
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#4129249 - 06/04/15 07:33 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Tom_Weiss]
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla
Skate Zilla Graphics
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Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
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Personally speaking your band and the details about it occured before I was even part of anything with ED, but lets not get into it. I don't run a music band ??? I run a website not a children's creche - people are what they are, I can only answer for my own actions. as for supporting Eagle Dynamics - my actions speak for themselves So to assume I use my posting here to harrass ppl and ban them else where is a flawed theory. unfortunately things are what they are - many of your "band" come here only to harass people, me specially. See edit, Autocorrect changed Ban to Band. And from what Ive seen, they only respond/quote/interact with you when you've claimed you were innocent and unjestly banned. And their replies are along the lines of you know what you did and why your posting rights were suspended. So again that has nothing to do with me, your whole issue with being suspended, then reinstated with an agreement then suspension reinstatement thingy is between you.and the ones you made the agreement with, however, I.do have access to.the entire story of what went on, so, Im not comepletely blind as to what went on. But again, nothing to do with me, and Im not gonna undermine others that had a more active role in the outcome of you posting privs.
Last edited by SkateZilla; 06/04/15 07:38 PM.
HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro, Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133, 2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ., 3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
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#4129250 - 06/04/15 07:34 PM
Re: Too much negativity recently on simhq?
[Re: Peally]
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
3rd Planet, Sun
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Such an incredible amount of energy to devote to outrage over 60 bucks. I think you need to read the arguments one more time. I think I couldn't care less, it's 60 bucks. People complain like they're being told they need to submit to martial law. all developers love dedicated supporters, the griping come with that, the more people are invested in a product, the louder they care for the quality of it. that is a fact proven over and over again in many fields of life. only clumsy developers fail to appreciate this fact.
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