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#4099334 - 03/30/15 08:06 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Angola ingame smile


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4099379 - 03/30/15 09:14 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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Which is why we need more Angola...


On Susangerd, its ya, 9 meter elevation changes that the satellite picks up, true. And a mean average is right. But the folds in the earth all all over the region. Enough to hide in as a person or a vehicle. To much of susangerd looks like a road leveling crew went threw. biggrin The region just does not look like that. Even the open desert is all mild folds. And I don't think your average satellite image or map for that matter, will pick up an 1/2 to 1 meter dip in the ground. but on the ground you see them all over. Its subtle, but its there.

#4100117 - 04/01/15 10:42 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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To me the game personally looks very HDR heavy probably to achieve a more realistic look, but I just find it weird every single time. I much prefer the Steel Fury terrain and palette to be honest.

IMHO, the biggest problem is that this feels like a game where a tank sim part is slapped onto the Achtung Panzer strategy game. I hate the small strategic map segments over which I move the units and how the turns play out and stuff. It feels so out of place for a tank sim, IMHO. And the map UI thus offers too many options which are not needed here. Even the in-game UI can be rather overwhelming. It's hardcore and all, but I think most players don't need most of those and would find a simplified interface with bigger indicators showing just the necessary items (crew position, turret orientation, ammo type, speed setting, etc.) much more rewarding.

Tank sims should be about speed and breakthroughs; it's not fun getting stuck in the bushes and ditches fighting over chunks of rather small flat maps where the combat is from up close and brutal. I'm not saying that the chosen scenarios were different in reality, but that the chosen scenarios were not the most suitable for a fun experience, even though they were original.

I've bought it on release and tried several times to get into it, but to no avail. I find it just too tedious to bother with for little reward at hand.

Please don't take it personally, but I'm just trying to give my impressions. If you ever decide to do another tank game, please make it more like what you did in Steel Fury and much less like this Achtung Panzer mod.

BTW, yes, I probably wrote a similar post the previous time I tried to get into it (before this last updated version), so sorry for repeating myself.

Last edited by ijozic; 04/01/15 10:55 AM.

i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#4100144 - 04/01/15 12:11 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: ijozic]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: ijozic
To me the game personally looks very HDR heavy probably to achieve a more realistic look, but I just find it weird every single time. I much prefer the Steel Fury terrain and palette to be honest.

The most frequent negative feedback about SF which we received - it acidic tone palette smile
In SABOW much softer and more realistic palette. At least after the March 2015 patch.

Originally Posted By: ijozic

IMHO, the biggest problem is that this feels like a game where a tank sim part is slapped onto the Achtung Panzer strategy game. I hate the small strategic map segments over which I move the units and how the turns play out and stuff.

This is a big problem any game where simulated combat. Once we go beyond a single tank (for example to a tank platoon), we have to do something for command and control.
Next biggest negative feddbacks from users about SF (after palette) are insufficient control over the troops and lack of the dynamic campaign smile
This drawbacks are corrected in SABOW too.

Originally Posted By: ijozic

It feels so out of place for a tank sim, IMHO. And the map UI thus offers too many options which are not needed here. Even the in-game UI can be rather overwhelming. It's hardcore and all, but I think most players don't need most of those and would find a simplified interface with bigger indicators showing just the necessary items (crew position, turret orientation, ammo type, speed setting, etc.) much more rewarding.


Tanks that are in the game now - a bit more complicated as there are in the SF, respectively, amount of different information in the UI is also greater. It's inevitable.

But you can disable the UI at all, and only use the cockpit and hotkeys. There's all this is displayed and works as in real tank.


Originally Posted By: ijozic
Tank sims should be about speed and breakthroughs;

Of course no smile
If you look at the two "living" tank simulators, which is now, you'll see that the "working with the map" occupies a significant portion of time.
Whatever it was, but the tank simulator is not a shooter in which the human model is replaced by a tank model and all actions are slowed. This is primarily a command and control.

Originally Posted By: ijozic

BTW, yes, I probably wrote a similar post the previous time I tried to get into it (before this last updated version), so sorry for repeating myself.

Thanks for the feedback!
In the next patch, which will be released a few days, will be and instant action mode w/o placement and troop management. In the future, probably added something like static campaign in SF.

#4100302 - 04/01/15 04:19 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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FlashBurn Offline
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A static campaign would not be a bad idea at all. but would it still be limited to same size battle area?

Still, the ability of the game to do both a fixed sort of traditional type play as well as being able to do a really interesting dynamic campaign in 1 game I should think, vary good.

#4101113 - 04/03/15 07:45 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andrey12345]  
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I like the idea of a instant action mode.

Another option I would like to see is a toggle to remove all realistic tank aiming where it will always hit where you point it, no range finding etc. This would give you the chance to just learn the map part first then the gun aiming. Possibly making the game more freindly to new players.

Even after reading the tutorials and watching some youtube videos I still do not understand the rangefinding bit. But I seem to be the only so it's probably just me, being a bit slow.

Anyway glad the game is progressing, and I will get it eventially.

Regards MarkL

Last edited by markl; 04/03/15 07:45 AM.

MarkL
#4101118 - 04/03/15 08:17 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: markl]  
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Originally Posted By: markl

I like the idea of a instant action mode.

Another option I would like to see is a toggle to remove all realistic tank aiming where it will always hit where you point it, no range finding etc. This would give you the chance to just learn the map part first then the gun aiming. Possibly making the game more freindly to new players.

Even after reading the tutorials and watching some youtube videos I still do not understand the rangefinding bit. But I seem to be the only so it's probably just me, being a bit slow.

Anyway glad the game is progressing, and I will get it eventially.

Regards MarkL


The M60a1 well, the sticky post up top of this forum is still relevant.

The T62 is simply use the range strata lines on the various devices. The gunners sight, the commanders sight, or with bino's. The new revised game manual explains this really well.

#4101420 - 04/03/15 08:39 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: FlashBurn]  
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markl Offline
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
Originally Posted By: markl

I like the idea of a instant action mode.

Another option I would like to see is a toggle to remove all realistic tank aiming where it will always hit where you point it, no range finding etc. This would give you the chance to just learn the map part first then the gun aiming. Possibly making the game more freindly to new players.

Even after reading the tutorials and watching some youtube videos I still do not understand the rangefinding bit. But I seem to be the only so it's probably just me, being a bit slow.

Anyway glad the game is progressing, and I will get it eventially.

Regards MarkL


The M60a1 well, the sticky post up top of this forum is still relevant.

The T62 is simply use the range strata lines on the various devices. The gunners sight, the commanders sight, or with bino's. The new revised game manual explains this really well.


I do get part of it OK, and making some progress. After a bit more trying I will ask a few questions.
Regards MarkL


MarkL
#4101438 - 04/03/15 09:26 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: markl]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: markl

I like the idea of a instant action mode.

Another option I would like to see is a toggle to remove all realistic tank aiming where it will always hit where you point it, no range finding etc. This would give you the chance to just learn the map part first then the gun aiming. Possibly making the game more freindly to new players.

Even after reading the tutorials and watching some youtube videos I still do not understand the rangefinding bit. But I seem to be the only so it's probably just me, being a bit slow.

Anyway glad the game is progressing, and I will get it eventially.

Regards MarkL



1) Use M60 tank: commander seat on rangefinder place + full command mode. Press [5] and [5] again
Use mouse scroll to overlapping images on target and shot to cross
2) T-62 tank: gunner seat + APDSFS shell. Press [1]+[R]. You can shoot to targets close then 1600 m on ^ mark due to high shell velocity.

#4101845 - 04/05/15 11:00 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andrey12345]  
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ijozic Offline
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Originally Posted By: andrey12345
The most frequent negative feedback about SF which we received - it acidic tone palette smile
In SABOW much softer and more realistic palette. At least after the March 2015 patch.


OK, I just downloaded the patch so will try. Hope it's compatible with the second version I got from the GG site.

But, the realistic look is rather subjective and directly translating the real colors into the palette does not guarantee a convincing look. IMHO, I'd say SB Pro doesn't seem to have a highly authentic palette, but achieves to look much more convincing than the very HDR heavy and busy look of the SABOW.

Originally Posted By: andrey12345
This is a big problem any game where simulated combat. Once we go beyond a single tank (for example to a tank platoon), we have to do something for command and control.
Next biggest negative feddbacks from users about SF (after palette) are insufficient control over the troops and lack of the dynamic campaign smile This drawbacks are corrected in SABOW too.


Yes, OK, but a tank company is where the line should be drawn IMHO. It's obviously subjective, but in a tank sim, you should be a part of the larger battle, not running it. If I'd want that, I'd play Theatre of War or APOS or whatever. Now, having an adaptive and dynamic AI on both sides might be problematic so those missions are usually heavily scripted, but I have no problem with that. I'd much prefer a set of scripted missions linked to a campaign (ideally a branching one) to a repetitive dynamic campaign on a small map like in SABOW.

Originally Posted By: andrey12345
Tanks that are in the game now - a bit more complicated as there are in the SF, respectively, amount of different information in the UI is also greater. It's inevitable.
But you can disable the UI at all, and only use the cockpit and hotkeys. There's all this is displayed and works as in real tank.


This is nitpicking, but I don't see how these tanks differs from a WWII tank technically. The Germans had the passive IR devices at the end of that war and also had the stereoscopic range finders on some prototypes IIRC (like Panther II with the new small turret).

Originally Posted By: andrey12345
If you look at the two "living" tank simulators, which is now, you'll see that the "working with the map" occupies a significant portion of time.
Whatever it was, but the tank simulator is not a shooter in which the human model is replaced by a tank model and all actions are slowed. This is primarily a command and control.


Sorry, but now you're just patronizing me with the FPS part, I never hinted at wanting something like that. Tanks are made for maneuvering warfare and your game has them placed on a small map moving at small chunks of a "strategic" map which is the size of a relatively small tactical one. Working with the map, yes, to identify the terrain benefits, routes of approach, etc. but I don't see this tiled turn based map handling in any other tank sim. This is my biggest problem with this game - I found the small map divided into even smaller chunks limiting in a tactical strategy game like APOS, let alone in something that should be first and foremost a tank-sim. It could work on a larger scale, but then you'd need some map generation algorithm I guess..

Originally Posted By: andrey12345
Thanks for the feedback! In the next patch, which will be released a few days, will be and instant action mode w/o placement and troop management. In the future, probably added something like static campaign in SF.


Thanks on your continuing work on the game, looking forward to the "action" mode (for us FPS lovers wink ).

And the addition of a static campaign like the SF in the next game would be great, thanks for considering it.

Last edited by ijozic; 04/05/15 11:30 AM.

i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SoundBlaster 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1 btn 2 axis gameport joystick, Numpad as hat-switch. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH average.
#4101853 - 04/05/15 11:38 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: ijozic]  
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Originally Posted By: ijozic

But, the realistic look is rather subjective and directly translating the real colors into the palette does not guarantee a convincing look. IMHO, I'd say SB Pro doesn't seem to have a highly authentic palette, but achieves to look much more convincing than the very HDR heavy and busy look of the SABOW.

Objectively, it is not right. For example, in the SB never happens sunny day or dark night. What does not pull on a realistic view.
I do not know what you mean, under "very HDR heavy" in SABOW, but enough to go out on a sunny day and immediately you can see where this is done correctly, and where not. Like it or not - whether it is an objective reality.

We do simulation in all aspects, and try not to do any subjective things if it possible. Only try to reproduce the objective world.

Originally Posted By: ijozic

Yes, OK, but a tank company is where the line should be drawn IMHO. It's obviously subjective, but in a tank sim, you should be a part of the larger battle, not running it. If I'd want that, I'd play Theatre of War or APOS or whatever. Now, having an adaptive and dynamic AI on both sides might be problematic so those missions are usually heavily scripted, but I have no problem with that. I'd much prefer a set of scripted missions linked to a campaign (ideally a branching one) to a repetitive dynamic campaign on a small map like in SABOW.


Each approach has its pros and cons. Better to have both, but it is difficult in general for technical reasons for the low-budget games.


Originally Posted By: ijozic

This is nitpicking, but I don't see how these tanks differs from a WWII tank technically. The Germans had the passive IR devices at the end of that war and also had the stereoscopic range finders on some prototypes IIRC (like Panther II with the new small turret).

What does this have to do with the attitude of the tanks from SF and 1942 year?

M60A1 much complex than the Panther. Starting from the engine and transmission, ending ballistic computer and fire control system. T-62 in more aspects too.

Originally Posted By: ijozic

Sorry, but now you're just patronizing me with the FPS part, I never hinted at wanting something like that. Tanks are made for maneuvering warfare and your game has them placed on a small map moving at small chunks of a "strategic" map which is the size of a relatively small tactical one. Working with the map, yes, to identify the terrain benefits, routes of approach, etc. but I don't see this tiled turn based map handling in any other tank sim. This is my biggest problem with this game - I found the small map divided into even smaller chunks limiting in a tactical strategy game like APOS, let alone in something that should be first and foremost a tank-sim. It could work on a larger scale, but then you'd need some map generation algorithm I guess..

I'm saying, you want fast action/plot, whereas it is the main logistics and command and control.
It's not that bad, just obviously this is minor part of the game.
Yes, it probably will, but not so fast smile

#4102072 - 04/06/15 12:45 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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I really like bossing around the AI. Setting up infantry in defensive positions. Or ordering them to screen my tanks. Or the reverse, supporting their attack.

I agree on the map sizes, but not so much the squares. 1km square with a max of 9 is way to limiting with modern tanks. This needs to be bigger IMO. If that means 9 2km squares? OR 4 2km + squares? WEll I dont know what would be better. I just know 1km is too small. But how it brakes up for battles is great. You simply get new combos of map to fight over in the dynamic campaign. But real maneuvering, flanking, or really deep attacks you can not do because of the size of the battle area.

Tanks work best in modern war when they have infantry crunchies with them. To only focus on tanks, and noting but tanks removes a huge part of what combined arms can do.

I really do like the idea of having both a static campaign and the current dynamic running side by side in one game. Lots of things you can do there.

#4119325 - 05/12/15 11:44 AM Re: SABOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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My SABOW isn´t working anymore. I bet i has something to do with me running and Intel HD3000 only as a graphics card + new patch.

Regarding the UI, it wasn´t as self explainatory as it could be. As an example, the icon for Closes hatches, i never was sure if the hatches are open or not by the symbol. Also when not in commanders seat how do you know, if the hatches are open??? There should be an indicator in all positions.

RL is calling stronger then SABOW, so I have deinstalled it. I wish you all the success you want with SABOW. Bye.

#4119339 - 05/12/15 12:22 PM Re: SABOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: andre2
My SABOW isn´t working anymore. I bet i has something to do with me running and Intel HD3000 only as a graphics card + new patch.

HD3000 and other strange Intel 2D cards not supported, sorry

Originally Posted By: andre2

Regarding the UI, it wasn´t as self explainatory as it could be. As an example, the icon for Closes hatches, i never was sure if the hatches are open or not by the symbol. Also when not in commanders seat how do you know, if the hatches are open??? There should be an indicator in all positions.

It think as in real life - look to hatch and see open or not.
Any other variants can be?

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