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#4102965 - 04/08/15 02:16 AM Question for my German comrades  
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Banjoman Offline
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What is the deal with the German planes? The Germans have always been the makers of precision optics and instruments, so why in Oct 1917 am I flying in a Pfalz D.IIIa that only has a tachometer. The British planes are loaded with instruments while the Germans might only have one. What do you suppose was the reason? Was it cost or weight? Anyway, I await your input.


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#4102970 - 04/08/15 02:35 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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I'm an American not a German, but I like that cockpit. It needs an altimeter imho



Hard to beat the cockpit visibity!

#4103003 - 04/08/15 06:54 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?

just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#)

Last edited by lederhosen; 04/08/15 06:54 AM.

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#4103021 - 04/08/15 08:20 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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That's a good question and one I have often wondered about myself.
Probably nothing mysterious about it just a different design philosophy I am guessing.
I notice the Nieuports I fly are kind of "German" like with minimal instruments also.
I personally like a lot of dials so I really like the Se series - feels like a Cadillac.

#4103024 - 04/08/15 08:41 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: lederhosen]  
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Originally Posted By: lederhosen
could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?

just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#)


lol..

but in the end, the typo of instruments you really need in this planes are the engine related ones, anything else you do get a pretty good idea of by just looking outside. And the mainstay of the german fighters on the western front did not make long distance flights and stayed defensive on their part of the lines.


And you got to bear in mind that the blockade let to shortage of raw materials and food in germany, so not putting anything metal and time costly in, like precision instruments was part of the effort to keep production high.

oddly enough, this was the direct opposite in ww2, even when they knew (in the end) that their planes had a very very short life expectation and despite putting on wooden tails to save metal, the instruments then where always top notch and over done.

#4103026 - 04/08/15 08:43 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Olham Offline
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I am German, but not an expert at all, and can only guess here.

Maybe it's because the British had the "aggressive" mission tasks across the lines,
for which certain altitudes were given - so they needed the altimeter.

The German scouts were more interceptors.
They just followed early telephone reports about incoming aircraft, and then they
would follow the black Flak puffs, or they already saw the enemy flight.
They just had to climb to the enemy - no need for an altimeter.

Just my thoughts.


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#4103039 - 04/08/15 10:28 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: DrZebra]  
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Originally Posted By: DrZebra
Originally Posted By: lederhosen
could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?

just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#)


lol..

but in the end, the typo of instruments you really need in this planes are the engine related ones, anything else you do get a pretty good idea of by just looking outside. And the mainstay of the german fighters on the western front did not make long distance flights and stayed defensive on their part of the lines.


And you got to bear in mind that the blockade let to shortage of raw materials and food in germany, so not putting anything metal and time costly in, like precision instruments was part of the effort to keep production high.

oddly enough, this was the direct opposite in ww2, even when they knew (in the end) that their planes had a very very short life expectation and despite putting on wooden tails to save metal, the instruments then where always top notch and over done.


According to Capt. Eric Brown in his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe" the late-model 109G suffered from poor quality glass in the windscreen. It was lucky to have any glass at all being made in 1944. He did like the German systems including their one lever for throttle, boost control and mixture. And of course the aircraft were all 24-volt which only appeared on British aircraft after the war. The only complaint I read of his was the cannon round counter in the Me110 which was a complete waste of time and was put where the compass should be.


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#4103044 - 04/08/15 10:52 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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From "Cockpits deutcher Flugzeuge", the Alb. DVa of the Australian War Museum only shows in its original dashboard: tacho (missing), speed, fuel pressure, fuel gauge, compas . The author writes :" altimeter or watch could be added according to pilot's request."


"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him."
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#4103057 - 04/08/15 11:35 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Here is an old graphic I made with Lou's assistance - it shows how Albatros cockpits were equipped or partly modyfied.




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#4103061 - 04/08/15 11:50 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Another point is the value of cockpit instruments in those days.

When Arthur Gould Lee got shot down twice (!) on the same day during the battle of Cambrai,
he took the clock out of his Sopwith Camel, to keep it as a souvenir from this "adventure".
The next day he received a typed order, to come an office and hand over the clock which
he had removed. Hard times?
I guess in those days tech gear just had a much higher value - things were not easily given up,
even when they were broken.


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#4103126 - 04/08/15 01:14 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Thanks for all of the good answers and information. Since the Pfalz doesn't have an altimeter I'm trying to train my eye to determine roughly what altitude I'm flying. I'm just amazed that the German pilots could fill out their reports with any accuracy not knowing their altitude.


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#4103127 - 04/08/15 01:15 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Aeronautical watches are from a much higher quality than ordinary watches. As they are much needed for navigation and tactical need, they have to stay perfectly reliable although under negative hinderance from thermic, magnetic, physical origin and so had a lot of value. Maybe that's why he choose to take it with him instead of the tachometer and why staff asked him to give it back !


"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him."
Tom Cundall.
#4103146 - 04/08/15 01:37 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Originally Posted By: SOGriffin
I'm just amazed that the German pilots could fill out their reports with any accuracy not knowing their altitude.

Well, there was nobody who could prove they were wrong - right? biggrin

Good point, kaa.


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#4103147 - 04/08/15 01:37 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Yes there was a standing order to ALL pilots of the RFC/RAF to remove the dashboard clocks (as they were called) in the event of the aircraft coming down anywhere else but their base.
Apparently, not being connected to anything, there were easily removed and highly prized as a souvenier not only by the pilots (who hoped to "win" one) but by everyone else as the were very fine, and probably expensive, time keepers.
I have read about the "remove the clock" order not only from Lee (who had to fill out forms swearing he didn't steal it from the "howling Equipment people") but also in the memoirs of a Se5 pilot forced down multiple times in 1918. Apparently one of the first questions asked of him upon his return to his field minus his Se was "Did you bring the clock back?" from the Squadron RO!

#4103210 - 04/08/15 03:55 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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.

Yes, I always got a chuckle out of that standing order. You've gone down in NML, shells falling all around, bullets whizzing over your head, and you're expected to take the time to pry the damned cockpit watch loose and bring it back.

To the original question about the lack of gauges in the German kites, it should be mentioned that a lot of the instruments built by the German firms were not designed to mount into the cockpits in the more conventional sense, i.e. bolted into a dashboard, as most German planes, (at least the scout planes), did not have dashboards per se. Delicate instruments such as altimeters were self-contained and could be quickly mounted with springs, rubber straps, or bungee cords. This also meant that they could be easily removed and stored in safer, drier places than the open air of the hangers. Add to this the fact that a lot of scout/fighter pilots flew by feel more than anything and therefore did not request the additional instruments to be installed in their mounts. IMHO, these two factors are likely the primary reasons why there are so few gauges seen in contemporary photos of WWI-era German planes.

.


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_________________________________________________________________________

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#4103212 - 04/08/15 03:59 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Lou, that sounds reasonable so I'll turn my question around. Why did the British have so many instruments?


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#4103214 - 04/08/15 04:05 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.

.


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Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4103221 - 04/08/15 04:14 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted By: RAF_Louvert
.

SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.

.


My wife uses that same logic with her closet!


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#4103223 - 04/08/15 04:16 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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MFair Hahahaha

Lou That's the best explanation I've heard anywhere, thanks for the information.

Everybody else, thanks for your input I can now put this question to rest.

Last edited by SOGriffin; 04/08/15 04:18 PM.

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#4103230 - 04/08/15 04:22 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: MFair]  
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Originally Posted By: MFair
Originally Posted By: RAF_Louvert
.

SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.

.


My wife uses that same logic with her closet!


I can't criticize, I use the same logic with my library shelves. biggrin

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4103233 - 04/08/15 04:26 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Also it should be remembered that WOFF is not the same thing as the real world history 100 years ago.

Not everything was in real life like it is in WOFF. For example, the French Nupes in WOFF don't have much in the way of instruments. In real life, the instruments were normally installed in the field. The aircraft that was shipped from the factory didn't have them.

It's understandable that the WOFF devs simply don't have the resources to model everything 100% realistically.


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

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#4103238 - 04/08/15 04:35 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Hasse]  
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Originally Posted By: Hasse
It's understandable that the WOFF devs simply don't have the resources to model everything 100% realistically.


GASP! Say it ain't so Hasse, say it ain't so!

winkngrin

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4103248 - 04/08/15 04:45 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Burn the heretic!
But as an aside that is interesting to know.
Still gotta burn though. Sorry!

#4103614 - 04/09/15 12:38 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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There is this Joke from german Mechanics, that the british Cars are of such low Quality, that they simply have to have a Truckload of Gauges and Meters, because you must constantly check, if everything is still running properly...
The Reality is somewhat different, especially nowadays, as there is no longer such Thing as a certain Car exclusively made in a single Country.
In the past, every Nation (and every Decade) had it's distinctive "Taste" on how to design Things:
The British like Wood, brown Leather and chrome Gauges - the Germans like (stainless) Steel, black Leather and ONE single Instrument in the Center.
Americans like loads of Switches, Buttons and Levers ;-)

#4103667 - 04/09/15 01:39 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Nietzsche]  
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Originally Posted By: Nietzsche

Americans like loads of Switches, Buttons and Levers ;-)




The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4104109 - 04/10/15 09:06 AM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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According to Bill Bryson, what Americans like is lots of cup holders. He counted 17 in one 'minivan'. As it could seat seven that makes 2.42 cupholders per person. stirthepot


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#4104193 - 04/10/15 12:59 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Yeah, I always wondered where to put my Cup of Coffee in these Kites... you know these "Gyroscopic-Cup-Holders" for Cars? Would be great for Planes, also ;-)
BTW, don't drink your Coffee from a White Cup, when using TrackIR...

#4104242 - 04/10/15 01:53 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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Now that I have joined the 'dark side' (actually the 'right side' neaner ) I was confused by the 'contact' call made in the audio when starting my Aviatik. So I got out my ancient German/English dictionary (a relic of when I 'learnt' German 1960-64 mostly forgotten after all this time) and looked up 'contact' in the English side. It is only there in an electrical sense. However, as usual when looking up a word, I found another word in German - 'grobian' which I have come across in the works of Patrick O'Brien in the mouth of his Irish friend. I thought this word was Erse. The dictionary gives it as the German for 'churl' in English, not a word that is much used nowadays biggrin

Anyway, what is the word said in the WOFF audio?

#4104313 - 04/10/15 03:20 PM Re: Question for my German comrades [Re: Banjoman]  
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I have turned off that Sound a while ago (because it was so horribly loud), but didn't they say something like "Anwerfen!" ?
That means "Turn on" or "Crank the Engine"

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