#4103003 - 04/08/15 06:54 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Joined: May 2012
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lederhosen
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Germany
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could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?
just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#)
Last edited by lederhosen; 04/08/15 06:54 AM.
make mistakes and learn from them
I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
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#4103024 - 04/08/15 08:41 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: lederhosen]
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,204
DrZebra
crash-professional
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crash-professional
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steppe
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could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?
just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#) lol.. but in the end, the typo of instruments you really need in this planes are the engine related ones, anything else you do get a pretty good idea of by just looking outside. And the mainstay of the german fighters on the western front did not make long distance flights and stayed defensive on their part of the lines. And you got to bear in mind that the blockade let to shortage of raw materials and food in germany, so not putting anything metal and time costly in, like precision instruments was part of the effort to keep production high. oddly enough, this was the direct opposite in ww2, even when they knew (in the end) that their planes had a very very short life expectation and despite putting on wooden tails to save metal, the instruments then where always top notch and over done.
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#4103026 - 04/08/15 08:43 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Olham
Barmy Baron from Berlin
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Barmy Baron from Berlin
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I am German, but not an expert at all, and can only guess here.
Maybe it's because the British had the "aggressive" mission tasks across the lines, for which certain altitudes were given - so they needed the altimeter.
The German scouts were more interceptors. They just followed early telephone reports about incoming aircraft, and then they would follow the black Flak puffs, or they already saw the enemy flight. They just had to climb to the enemy - no need for an altimeter.
Just my thoughts.
Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club) Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
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#4103039 - 04/08/15 10:28 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: DrZebra]
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,267
JimAttrill
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Johannesburg, South Africa
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could be like ROF.....you have to buy them?
just kidding.(now awaiting a #%&*$#) lol.. but in the end, the typo of instruments you really need in this planes are the engine related ones, anything else you do get a pretty good idea of by just looking outside. And the mainstay of the german fighters on the western front did not make long distance flights and stayed defensive on their part of the lines. And you got to bear in mind that the blockade let to shortage of raw materials and food in germany, so not putting anything metal and time costly in, like precision instruments was part of the effort to keep production high. oddly enough, this was the direct opposite in ww2, even when they knew (in the end) that their planes had a very very short life expectation and despite putting on wooden tails to save metal, the instruments then where always top notch and over done. According to Capt. Eric Brown in his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe" the late-model 109G suffered from poor quality glass in the windscreen. It was lucky to have any glass at all being made in 1944. He did like the German systems including their one lever for throttle, boost control and mixture. And of course the aircraft were all 24-volt which only appeared on British aircraft after the war. The only complaint I read of his was the cannon round counter in the Me110 which was a complete waste of time and was put where the compass should be.
LG 27" 27mp65 monitor; EVGA GTX970 GPU; AMD Ryzen 3500 CPU; Corsair 750w PSU; MSI X470 mobo
RAF 1966-73 Cpl Engine Fitter (Retd.) Trenchard brat 206th Entry DBA and systems programmer 1981-2005. Now retired since 2014
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#4103044 - 04/08/15 10:52 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,586
kaa
Senior Member
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France
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From "Cockpits deutcher Flugzeuge", the Alb. DVa of the Australian War Museum only shows in its original dashboard: tacho (missing), speed, fuel pressure, fuel gauge, compas . The author writes :" altimeter or watch could be added according to pilot's request."
"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him." Tom Cundall.
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#4103057 - 04/08/15 11:35 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Olham
Barmy Baron from Berlin
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Here is an old graphic I made with Lou's assistance - it shows how Albatros cockpits were equipped or partly modyfied.
Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club) Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
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#4103061 - 04/08/15 11:50 AM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Olham
Barmy Baron from Berlin
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Another point is the value of cockpit instruments in those days.
When Arthur Gould Lee got shot down twice (!) on the same day during the battle of Cambrai, he took the clock out of his Sopwith Camel, to keep it as a souvenir from this "adventure". The next day he received a typed order, to come an office and hand over the clock which he had removed. Hard times? I guess in those days tech gear just had a much higher value - things were not easily given up, even when they were broken.
Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club) Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
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#4103127 - 04/08/15 01:15 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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kaa
Senior Member
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France
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Aeronautical watches are from a much higher quality than ordinary watches. As they are much needed for navigation and tactical need, they have to stay perfectly reliable although under negative hinderance from thermic, magnetic, physical origin and so had a lot of value. Maybe that's why he choose to take it with him instead of the tachometer and why staff asked him to give it back !
"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him." Tom Cundall.
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#4103146 - 04/08/15 01:37 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Olham
Barmy Baron from Berlin
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Barmy Baron from Berlin
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I'm just amazed that the German pilots could fill out their reports with any accuracy not knowing their altitude.
Well, there was nobody who could prove they were wrong - right? Good point, kaa.
Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club) Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
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#4103210 - 04/08/15 03:55 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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RAF_Louvert
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
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BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
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L'Etoile du Nord
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Yes, I always got a chuckle out of that standing order. You've gone down in NML, shells falling all around, bullets whizzing over your head, and you're expected to take the time to pry the damned cockpit watch loose and bring it back. To the original question about the lack of gauges in the German kites, it should be mentioned that a lot of the instruments built by the German firms were not designed to mount into the cockpits in the more conventional sense, i.e. bolted into a dashboard, as most German planes, (at least the scout planes), did not have dashboards per se. Delicate instruments such as altimeters were self-contained and could be quickly mounted with springs, rubber straps, or bungee cords. This also meant that they could be easily removed and stored in safer, drier places than the open air of the hangers. Add to this the fact that a lot of scout/fighter pilots flew by feel more than anything and therefore did not request the additional instruments to be installed in their mounts. IMHO, these two factors are likely the primary reasons why there are so few gauges seen in contemporary photos of WWI-era German planes.
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Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked._________________________________________________________________________ Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above. "pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"
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#4103214 - 04/08/15 04:05 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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RAF_Louvert
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SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.
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Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked._________________________________________________________________________ Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above. "pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"
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#4103221 - 04/08/15 04:14 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: RAF_Louvert]
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,086
MFair
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.
. My wife uses that same logic with her closet!
Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end. BOC Member since....I can't remember!
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#4103223 - 04/08/15 04:16 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,420
Banjoman
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Antigua, Guatemala
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MFair Hahahaha
Lou That's the best explanation I've heard anywhere, thanks for the information.
Everybody else, thanks for your input I can now put this question to rest.
Last edited by SOGriffin; 04/08/15 04:18 PM.
Member and provider of banjo music for the Illustrious BOC
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#4103230 - 04/08/15 04:22 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: MFair]
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
RAF_Louvert
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
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BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
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L'Etoile du Nord
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SOGriffin, I think it's because the Brits approached aeroplane cockpit design more like that of a car, which led them to having true dashboards with more room for permanently installed instruments. And, once you have room for such instruments you tend to fill up said room with every doodad and gewgaw you can find and/or design.
. My wife uses that same logic with her closet! I can't criticize, I use the same logic with my library shelves. .
Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked._________________________________________________________________________ Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above. "pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"
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#4103238 - 04/08/15 04:35 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Hasse]
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Joined: May 2012
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RAF_Louvert
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L'Etoile du Nord
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It's understandable that the WOFF devs simply don't have the resources to model everything 100% realistically. GASP! Say it ain't so Hasse, say it ain't so! .
Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked._________________________________________________________________________ Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above. "pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"
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#4103614 - 04/09/15 12:38 PM
Re: Question for my German comrades
[Re: Banjoman]
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 907
Nietzsche
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There is this Joke from german Mechanics, that the british Cars are of such low Quality, that they simply have to have a Truckload of Gauges and Meters, because you must constantly check, if everything is still running properly... The Reality is somewhat different, especially nowadays, as there is no longer such Thing as a certain Car exclusively made in a single Country. In the past, every Nation (and every Decade) had it's distinctive "Taste" on how to design Things: The British like Wood, brown Leather and chrome Gauges - the Germans like (stainless) Steel, black Leather and ONE single Instrument in the Center. Americans like loads of Switches, Buttons and Levers ;-)
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