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#4097927 - 03/27/15 03:47 PM Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways?  
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Li'lJugs Offline
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Sometimes I see them on a sectional and sometimes I don't? This whole navigation business has me flummoxed, I can get around using the Magenta Line, but I really don't know what I am doing, for the most part.

BTW, I have the Flight1 GTN 750, just an excellent piece of equipment.


Hi, I'm Larry and this my brother Dayrle, and this is my other brother Dayrle.
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#4097974 - 03/27/15 05:02 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Victor airways are low altitude airways (which basically means below FL180, everything above is class A). They typically run VOR to VOR. "Victor" is simply how you'd say the letter V over the radio. So instead of calling them VOR-airways or V-airways, you say victor airways.

Intersections are places where airways meet and diverge. You often see them on top of VORs. At an intersection you may get on another airway or you may enter into an approach procedure depending on where you are.

#4097977 - 03/27/15 05:07 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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If you are flying a prop-GA plane, airways don't have much meaning to you except to stay off them so you don't get in the way of that big 777. You'll also find similar things on a sectional that are military training routes. The numbering decodes to tell you what altitudes they operate at and whether they are supersonic or not. Again, so you can avoid them.

#4098548 - 03/28/15 11:49 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Originally Posted By: bonchie
If you are flying a prop-GA plane, airways don't have much meaning to you except to stay off them so you don't get in the way of that big 777. You'll also find similar things on a sectional that are military training routes. The numbering decodes to tell you what altitudes they operate at and whether they are supersonic or not. Again, so you can avoid them.


I disagree with about all of this. Flying on airways in general is a good idea for GA traffic, even vfr only. You're not likely to find a 777 on a victor route, they fly mainly on jet routes in class A airspace. Flying victor airways generally will ensure navaid reception and keep you out of areas that you don't want to be.

The only thing the name of an MTR tells you is whether it is flown solely Below 1500 AGL, in the case of three digit routes, or if part of the route extends above 1500 AGL, in the case of four digit routes. The only other thing it tells you is if the route can only be flown VMC or if it may be flown IMC as well. It tells you nothing about the speed, but the 250 knot FAA speed restriction does not apply.

#4099050 - 03/30/15 12:10 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: boomerang10]  
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Originally Posted By: boomerang10
Originally Posted By: bonchie
If you are flying a prop-GA plane, airways don't have much meaning to you except to stay off them so you don't get in the way of that big 777. You'll also find similar things on a sectional that are military training routes. The numbering decodes to tell you what altitudes they operate at and whether they are supersonic or not. Again, so you can avoid them.


I disagree with about all of this. Flying on airways in general is a good idea for GA traffic, even vfr only. You're not likely to find a 777 on a victor route, they fly mainly on jet routes in class A airspace. Flying victor airways generally will ensure navaid reception and keep you out of areas that you don't want to be.

The only thing the name of an MTR tells you is whether it is flown solely Below 1500 AGL, in the case of three digit routes, or if part of the route extends above 1500 AGL, in the case of four digit routes. The only other thing it tells you is if the route can only be flown VMC or if it may be flown IMC as well. It tells you nothing about the speed, but the 250 knot FAA speed restriction does not apply.


Guys flying VFR pipers for a hamburger aren't usually following airways. And that's the vast majority of your GA traffic.

Those 777s have to land. They don't stay in class A forever. They along with hundreds of other big iron variants going way faster then you are do use them. I don't know where you fly, but they are all over the place here in DC and it's a very real factor. Go take your 172 onto an airway in the middle of all the airline traffic coming in on the outskirts of the SFRA (before they enter the class B) and see what ATC thinks of it. If you've got GPS and terrain allows, no reason not to go direct. It's cheaper anyway.

I've had an A320 coming right at me before at night. I've had a 737 pass in front of me at an intersection less then a 1/2 mile away and I caught some of his wake. I've also seen conflicts around Class C airports where the jets are low but not yet in the band. I recommend staying away from the victor airways if VFR because there's few reasons to complicate matters by putting yourself in a busy traffic area if you don't have to. If you are on a 4 hour XC and want to use an airway between hubs for navigation purposes (don't have a GPS or whatever), have at it. Most VFR singles are out there following the magenta line airport to airport though. The exception is navigating through mountainous regions.

Everyone ultimately has to make safety decisions as PIC for themselves and we will disagree sometimes. I think it's safer to stay away from high traffic areas unless you actually need to be there for a practical reason.

#4099609 - 03/31/15 01:42 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Sorry Bonchie, I have to agree more with Boomerang on this one.

First of all, intersections are never on top of NavAids except by coincidence. A NavAid that is part of a Victor or Jet Route may be a turning point in the route, but an Intersection is really the meeting point of two routes or sometimes a point defined by an on airway route and an off airway radial or a DME along the route. Most of these are non compulsory reporting points (hollow triangles or NavAid symbols). Some are compulsory (blackened on the Low Charts).

Large carriers use Low Routes by exception. They are almost always filed via Jet Routes with SIDS and STARS at either end. Pilots are required to carry these charts however and on rare occasion will be given a Victor segment or simply a point (NavAid, Intersection, etc) that can only be found on the local low chart. Before Electronic Charts this announcement was generally accompanied by frenzied unfolding of said low chart (there are a zillion of them if you are flying coast to coast) and usually much cursing as you made a paper monster in your cockpit.

As for using charted routes or not, I'd give that a qualified "your mileage may vary". You are not going to take off from Teterboro and fly the Magenta line direct to Martha's Vinyard with three Class B airports in the way. The chief benefit of using established routes to get from A to B is that, like highways, they keep you on the straight and narrow so to speak. A Victor route will not fly you through a restricted area, MOA, or Prohibited Area. Complying with the altitude restrictions on the route will ensure proper signal reception (not a requirement with GPS but an intelligent backup) And ensure that you get 1000ft of terrain clearance in the flats and 2000ft in the mountains. In other words, standard routing does a lot of your work for you.

Certainly, flying between Louisville and Frankfort to grab some lunch, you may not find much value in going out of your way to hop on V512. But the farther you fly and the less familiar that you are with the surrounding airspace, the more beneficial hopping on the airways can be, actually especially when flying VFR since no one is responsible for your routing except for you.

And of course on that note, like highways, airways make you more predictable. Certainly as more big and little airplanes hear the Siren's song of the Magenta line, more planes are going every which way. But, particularly in crowded airspace, flying the airway makes you more predictable both to others trying to see and avoid you but also to air traffic controllers who are trying to keep big heavies away from you and still line them up for their approach.

#4099725 - 03/31/15 05:10 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Good info here, thanks. But I guess my main question is where, on the VFR sectionals, is the intersection name shown? I see some, I think, where the Victor airways do intersect, but not on all intersections? And I am just assuming that something like "CRAZE" (that one is on the Green Bay sectional) is an intersection name?

But, sometimes, I can see where 2 airways intersect, but I don't see anything that looks like an intersection name.

All these questions come from the features of the GTN 750, just trying to better use them, it's just an awesome piece of technology!


Hi, I'm Larry and this my brother Dayrle, and this is my other brother Dayrle.
#4099800 - 03/31/15 06:50 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Sacko, Cheri, and Damen intersections on V512


#4099801 - 03/31/15 06:51 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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If you haven't stumbled across it yet, Skyvector is awesome for switching between chart types....and free to boot!

Oh, some routes cross but don't have an intersection. The upshot is that you couldn't give a clearance like V512 to BLABR, V213 to HRN thence...(all made up BTW) if BLABR isn't on both airways. You would need to do something like V512 to BLABR, direct to HRN, then V213 to wherever. Of course, this is just an IFR clearance issue. VFR you can go wherever you like. But when you put it in your GPS, it may not recognize the non route point and you need to file it the other way.

Some older GPSs only basically file point to point anyway so it is academic for VFR. But if you try filing IFR, the computer will likely spit it out and make you (or the clearance giver) route you legally.

#4099816 - 03/31/15 07:13 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Li'lJugs Offline
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Starting to get my head around this, but more info is always appreciated.

And, yes, I do use Sky vector a lot.


Hi, I'm Larry and this my brother Dayrle, and this is my other brother Dayrle.
#4099823 - 03/31/15 07:25 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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It's harder to learn this from the sectional as the routes on there are really for reference only and lack a lot of detail, like what those intersections are defined off of which is on the Low and High Charts.

Generally, the expectation is that, if you fly VFR you do actually fly visually (with a wise peek at your radial if you choose to fly airways). So, you can plot your leg down the airway, but you still use the old clock to chart to ground visual nav method of flying. And when you are IFR, you are expected to fly on instruments, even if you have the ground in sight.

Like Bonchie said though, there is no requirement to fly via airways. They just provide some options for you and help keep you honest, particularly pre-GPS, but even post.

#4099958 - 04/01/15 12:51 AM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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The sectional's LEGEND page has lots of useful info as does the IFR low. Intersection names were a lot more fun 'til computers reduced them to five letters.

#4100145 - 04/01/15 12:13 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: olderndirt]  
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Originally Posted By: olderndirt
The sectional's LEGEND page has lots of useful info as does the IFR low. Intersection names were a lot more fun 'til computers reduced them to five letters.


Good call, OD. I actually referred to the low chart legend to make sure I wasn't spreading bad gouge. The one upside/downside to sites like Skyvector is that they hide the legends by default to give you see less coverage. But you can still find them if you fiddle with the selectios a bit.

#4100233 - 04/01/15 02:01 PM Re: Intersections, what are they? Victor Airways? [Re: bonchie]  
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Originally Posted By: bonchie
Originally Posted By: boomerang10
Originally Posted By: bonchie
If you are flying a prop-GA plane, airways don't have much meaning to you except to stay off them so you don't get in the way of that big 777. You'll also find similar things on a sectional that are military training routes. The numbering decodes to tell you what altitudes they operate at and whether they are supersonic or not. Again, so you can avoid them.


I disagree with about all of this. Flying on airways in general is a good idea for GA traffic, even vfr only. You're not likely to find a 777 on a victor route, they fly mainly on jet routes in class A airspace. Flying victor airways generally will ensure navaid reception and keep you out of areas that you don't want to be.

The only thing the name of an MTR tells you is whether it is flown solely Below 1500 AGL, in the case of three digit routes, or if part of the route extends above 1500 AGL, in the case of four digit routes. The only other thing it tells you is if the route can only be flown VMC or if it may be flown IMC as well. It tells you nothing about the speed, but the 250 knot FAA speed restriction does not apply.


Guys flying VFR pipers for a hamburger aren't usually following airways. And that's the vast majority of your GA traffic.

Those 777s have to land. They don't stay in class A forever. They along with hundreds of other big iron variants going way faster then you are do use them. I don't know where you fly, but they are all over the place here in DC and it's a very real factor. Go take your 172 onto an airway in the middle of all the airline traffic coming in on the outskirts of the SFRA (before they enter the class B) and see what ATC thinks of it. If you've got GPS and terrain allows, no reason not to go direct. It's cheaper anyway.

I've had an A320 coming right at me before at night. I've had a 737 pass in front of me at an intersection less then a 1/2 mile away and I caught some of his wake. I've also seen conflicts around Class C airports where the jets are low but not yet in the band. I recommend staying away from the victor airways if VFR because there's few reasons to complicate matters by putting yourself in a busy traffic area if you don't have to. If you are on a 4 hour XC and want to use an airway between hubs for navigation purposes (don't have a GPS or whatever), have at it. Most VFR singles are out there following the magenta line airport to airport though. The exception is navigating through mountainous regions.

Everyone ultimately has to make safety decisions as PIC for themselves and we will disagree sometimes. I think it's safer to stay away from high traffic areas unless you actually need to be there for a practical reason.


Absolutely right! If your are flying within 40 miles of a major airport the intersections depicted on a sectional can take on new meaning. They can coincide with arrival gates into that terminal complex. Arriving traffic is brought in under departing traffic and that often means surprisingly low 777s in even the most rural environments, terrain permitting. My airline has had at least one close call with a glider flying out of my "play" airport, Blairstown, NJ. We have our heads on a swivel. Hope you do to.


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