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#4098691 - 03/29/15 02:04 PM SABOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road  
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andre2 Offline
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Hi sim fans,

I come along way as gamer and fan of tank sims and started on "Steel Thunder" on the C64 in 1992. I loved this game and spent a gazillion hours on it as a child.
Armored Fist 1 and 2, M1 Tank Platoon 2, Panzer Elite, Steel Beast Gold, T-72 Balkan´s on Fire, WoT ...spent alot of time on them also.

I need your opinion on SABOW. Please share it with us here.

After learning about SABOW I was really courious about the game and got excited. But after spending some time with it, I found that it really is an unfinished product. Even if I had a few very good impressions at the start (Flying off fenders and stuff of BMP´s which got hit by HE, tank models, etc).

It´s a sim after all but considering this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY7aRJE-oOY

at the confrontation of fun vs realism fun always wins. SABOW has alot of unfinished "content" which isn´t fun after all.
I run Version 5.81 (1983) update: aug.12b2 which should be the latest as far as i know.

If this title should get sold alot, some stuff really has to become customer friendly.

The UI isn´t made for a broad spectrum of people, the learning curve of the game is steep in the beginning (which is OK for a sim) and alot of stuff happens, where the game does not comunicate why it happenend.

To name just a few flaws, which are really annoying:

1. I couldn´t get out of the cupola with the commander with "O" key, while the loader could do it as often as he wanted to. --> Bug. How shall I see if i´m in position well if I cant get this view (no enemy in sight). Looking for good positioning with the loader is #%&*$#, because of his limited field of view.

2. Quick battle is a good way to get used to all the controls. Thanks to the guy, who put the easy tutorial up in the forums of gravyteam and here. Graviteam should offer you a job! Because you did some of their work already anyways.
Once in quick battle I killed 3 of 4 russian tanks and was just hunting down the last one. (The first 3 quick battles before of this one the AI won.) All of a sudden a countdown kicks in with 30 seconds left, which was not enough time to get the last one. With no option to either stop the countdown or setting the timer to "24h" instead of 5 minutes for a quick battle (or however how long it is)....... --> No fun at all, see the sit Meier link above. If the game designer prevends the player from having fun = game is a flop.

3. I ordered the AI to attack a victory location in campaign mode with 10-15 ´ish tanks, while I fiddled around somewhere else with another platoon as a gunner. The others got the victory location but only 2 tanks where left after that. My first thoughts, OMG, the enemy must have been very strong there. After checking that out, I learned that the biggest thread wasn´t the enemy AI.


Yeah, 4 tanks alone in this ditch like 4 pigs in a pigpen. It came to my mind slowly, where the other tanks disappeared from the map.
---> Biggest thread is the AI on the own side itself, not the enemy AI itself. ---> No pathfinding what the f**k??!!!

3. The UI is well made from a programmers perspective. It´s functional, it has everything but it lacks an intuitive access. The work of a game designer here is neccesary to open the game for a wider spectrum of gamers. This product shall be sold, right?

4. Range finding. That the gunners view switches from his gunsight to this turning device is cool. But I shall do what? Dial in the range on that device visually even if i cant read the numbers on it (low graphics settings, 13" ish laptop screen). This would be still ok, if well readable (I have flown Il-2 Sturmovik successfully on full real with cockpit gauges only and it was fun).
This is way to hard, considering that in RL as a gunner you would be well used to this device and would also have the hand-eye-muscle-memory-coordination to do it fast and well. But ingame here this works not that well.
--> again, no fun at all. Because when the range is set. The gunner/loader is already dead. I admit that I´m maybe too stupid to use the range finder/setting well.

5. The crew swears alot, when the tank got hit but nobody calls out a dead or injured crew member, like: "Scheiße, Hans hat´s erwischt.", "Gunner down, gunner down!" or "loader out of service!" or something in russian.

6. Why does an iranean tank crew speak russian?

After some first impressions and experiences I don´t like to spent time with this title anymore, because of all the flaws and frustration.

Am i totally wrong?? What is your impression of SABOW? Do you think similar about the game or is your experince with it totally different then mine? Please share your experiences here.

Last edited by andre2; 03/29/15 10:00 PM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4098737 - 03/29/15 03:47 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: andre2

1. I couldn´t get out of the cupola with the commander with "O" key, while the loader could do it as often as he wanted to. --> Bug. How shall I see if i´m in position well if I cant get this view (no enemy in sight). Looking for good positioning with the loader is #%&*$#, because of his limited field of view.

Simply turn the commanders cupola aligned to main turret (indicated in interface by '-' ).
Commander's seat for stowed position is attached to the main turret, it will be hard to hang in air.

Originally Posted By: andre2

2. Quick battle is a good way to get used to all the controls. Thanks to the guy, who put the easy tutorial up in the forums of gravyteam and here. Graviteam should offer you a job!

Already

Originally Posted By: andre2
Because you did some of their work already anyways.


But you can read the same in game manual, too smile
docs\support\01_tank_manual.pdf


Originally Posted By: andre2

Once in quick battle I killed 3 of 4 russian tanks and was just hunting down the last one. (The first 3 quick battles before of this one the AI won.) All of a sudden a countdown kicks in with 30 seconds left, which was not enough time to get the last one. With no option to either stop the countdown or setting the timer to "24h" instead of 5 minutes for a quick battle (or however how long it is)....... --> No fun at all, see the sit Meier link above. If the game designer prevends the player from having fun = game is a flop.

Fixed in patch

Originally Posted By: andre2

Yeah, 4 tanks alone in this ditch like 4 pigs in a pigpen. It came to my mind slowly, where the other tanks disappeared from the map.
---> Biggest thread is the AI on the own side itself, not the enemy AI itself. ---> No pathfinding what the f**k??!!!

Some photos from this place in this time (Iranian campaign in game)
http://i.imgur.com/xwYUNEp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GnprsLU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xwYUNEp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jF9FIYO.jpg

Do you think it is AI from our game? smile

The User's manual (in the historical information) described what and why it happened. The game is set up properly.

Originally Posted By: andre2

3. The UI is well made from a programmers perspective. It´s functional, it has everything but it lacks an intuitive access. The work of a game designer here is neccesary to open the game for a wider spectrum of gamers. This product shall be sold, right?

Graviteam is small company (4 men), not have game designers or other marginally useful people.

What exactly you don't like in the UI?

Originally Posted By: andre2

4. Range finding. That the gunners view switches from his gunsight to this turning device is cool. But I shall do what? Dial in the range on that device visually even if i cant read the numbers on it (low graphics settings, 13" ish laptop screen). This would be still ok, if well readable (I have flown Il-2 Sturmovik successfully on full real with cockpit gauges only and it was fun).
This is way to hard, considering that in RL as a gunner you would be well used to this device and would also have the hand-eye-muscle-memory-coordination to do it fast and well. But ingame here this works not that well.
--> again, no fun at all. Because when the range is set. The gunner/loader is already dead. I admit that I´m maybe too stupid to use the range finder/setting well.

Gunner not have access to rangefinder not in T-62 not in M60A1. Only to rangefinder reticles.
You can switch to the rangefinder reticle and measure or request a range from commander (he can use rangefinder in M60A1 tank), how to do it is described in the manual.
Please read it first, do not write nonsense.


Originally Posted By: andre2

5. The crew swears alot, when the tank got hit but nobody calls out a dead or injured crew member, like: "Scheiße, Hans hat´s erwischt.", "Gunner down, gunner down!" or "loader out of service!" or something in russian.

But why?
You can ask them and they will tell all about tank damages and condition of the crew.

Originally Posted By: andre2

6. Why does an iranean tank crew speak russian?

We dont know Farsi.
Maybe you want to voice all 100,500 game phrases in Farsi and five others languages that are needed in the game? smile

#4098763 - 03/29/15 04:21 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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General_Sultan Offline
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Al-Ṭā’if, Mekkah Go...
Quote:
5. The crew swears alot, when the tank got hit but nobody calls out a dead or injured crew member, like: "Scheiße, Hans hat´s erwischt.", "Gunner down, gunner down!" or "loader out of service!" or something in russian.



lol

*loader blows up and gets hit*

commander: loader is out of service!!

gunner: you don't say attack

#4098885 - 03/29/15 09:58 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andre2 Offline
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Uh oh, I hope your not THAT offended by my post. wink

Haha, thoose pictures of the tanks in the ditches. I have seen pictures of one tank in a ditch before but never 2 or more in one ditch. BTW, are there more pictures of theese on the web. I have searched on youtube for stuck tanks and stuff some time ago, but couldn´t really find much about that and tank recovery.
So it really happens that 5-10 tanks dissapear in the same ditch in the same location in 5 minutes????
I only have seen the Marder 1A3 and Leopard 2´s from the inside. So i don´t know how bad the view out of M60´s and T62´s is when hatches are closed. Would the first tank in the ditch actually call out on radio, that he found a ditch?

Thank you for the link to the manual. I checked it again, but can´t find the manual to quick battles. Which point is it the english one?

Then I searched for every "-" with Ctrl+F to find the position in the manual and controls table to get a clue on Cupola alignment. Also I dont believe, that the Commander would hang in the air, with hatch open, when the cupola points to somewhere else. He would just stand on his seat sideways or backwards, i believe.

4 men team!!! Ok ok, i see. Good job with theese recources. -I´m a mechanical engineer and from that perspective I´m very excited of the detail you have put into this. From My own CAD experience I know how much work and time that took.

The march 2015 patch sneaked in under my radar very stealthy two days ago.

You have been so friendly and took your time to aswer me. I will answer your question in more detail on what I would like to see in your UI later in this thread.

Rangefinder...Sorry, i meant the box on the right of the gunner withe the discs on it. The name of it does not get into my mind.I just checked it again. I really can´t read the numbers on it.

On dead crewmembers, yes Ctrl+I exists. But considering that in your sim you create a model of reality, you can´t model everything. You have to make compromises, because you can´t model exeriences like a fast view over the shoulder or the sound of a penetrator or after armor effect hit the flesh of the loader. With the compromises you have to give us as the users the chance to perform as well as in RL. The simle shoutout "Gunner down" gives that as fast as a view over the shoulder of the gunner in RL or the different sound of a penetration or the sound of when the splinters fly through parts of the inside of the tank when the spall liner failed to work.
What I want to address here is my experience that I heard an enemy shell bounce on the outside of the tank like many other bounces and all of a sudden I wonder and wonder, when the next shell will be loaded. But nothing happens. Typing Crl+I just does not feel like THE solution to that. Bcause with Ctrl+I, when the relevant info was shown, the next enemy shell has penetrated already.
I don´t know how tankers training is, when somebody of the crew get´s injured or killed. I don´t know that. I only know that your game and the experience of the gamer would benefit from that.

Farsi, i don´t speak farsi also. wink

#4098918 - 03/30/15 12:52 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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FlashBurn Offline
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With the Iran Iraq war its night time driving with not the worlds best tankers. Usually the tanks tail lights in front of you disappear and you STOP fooking driving. Not so with these guys. But ya, on some crossings on susangerd map the ai got hit with the dumb arse stick. No denying that. It usually does a vary good job of crossing on its own. Unless its the players platoon with bad orders or formations. Crossings with bridges on susangerd always ends with tons of tanks underwater. The tanks will crush the bridge... well the 1st one will. Then they keep piling on.

When your hit and hear the splat sound, you know someone got hit. Ya sure, in reality you would certainly know when a heat round punched threw your armor as the temperature suddenly spiked and your covered in gore. A verbal cue aint a bad idea. Perhaps something like. OMG, BOB's head is blown off! Or something.

ANd sounds like your talking about the m60 mechanical ballistic computer. Unless your manually inputting range, dont worry about what is displayed. Once the commander ranges the target with the stereo coincidence range finder, all you got to do is aim center with your sight. If it misses the mark its either the commander was off a bit, he will correct, or you did not get your level and the shot was canted. With the M60, the sights with all the range strata lines are your back up sights. Your primary is the real simple one and is slaved to the mechanical ballistic computer. Which it self is slaved to the commanders coincidence range finder.

The turning out only at the 12 is an annoying compromise. At other angles it might look goofy inside the tank. Like the commander is clipping threw things.

#4099042 - 03/30/15 11:49 AM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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General_Sultan Offline
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Al-Ṭā’if, Mekkah Go...
to be honest.. i never feel the terrains shown in the iran-iraq war in this game are realistic and historical, i studied and saw alot of the war, i have never seen the terrain similar to the one in the game in the war, infact even by google-earth it's not visible, if it's hoveyzah nearby, it was mostly an open flat desert like the one shown in your pictures flashburn, i can also provide scenes of the fighting from the area and adjacent, i have never seen similar terrain to it.

#4099063 - 03/30/15 12:35 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: General_Sultan]  
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FlashBurn Offline
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Originally Posted By: General_Sultan
to be honest.. i never feel the terrains shown in the iran-iraq war in this game are realistic and historical, i studied and saw alot of the war, i have never seen the terrain similar to the one in the game in the war, infact even by google-earth it's not visible, if it's hoveyzah nearby, it was mostly an open flat desert like the one shown in your pictures flashburn, i can also provide scenes of the fighting from the area and adjacent, i have never seen similar terrain to it.


Which pictures?

I obviously have never been to Iran. But never saw anything that looked like Susangerd map either. Closest is the Basra area next door. Which went from rolling desert to really green bits. Areas with palm trees usually had grasses that would go to maybe as high as your knee. If it was being cultivated, rows of whatever growing in lines under the shade the trees gave off. Tall reeds always around water with green everything popping up where ever water is. Always weird that one. Could be in the most insane desert one second. Then is massive lush green stuff the next that starts and stops totally abruptly. It suppose to be farm fields, but the plots don't look like it. Just random squares. Its always been my least favorite map. Oh and then the consent mild powered sand in the air. Gives off a tan look in the air when looking out distances. Not like North American deserts. Where the sand is gritty and stays on the ground. Oh and then the buildings. Ya totally not right. But we know that one. Bridges are usually concrete if new, or if way old, stone. Its not like either Iraq or Iran where living in some throw back area.

#4099109 - 03/30/15 01:24 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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#4099118 - 03/30/15 01:32 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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#4099130 - 03/30/15 01:40 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Some pics directly from 1980s





#4099134 - 03/30/15 01:43 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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...





#4099135 - 03/30/15 01:44 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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FlashBurn Offline
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I like this one

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#...mp;user=7248917

diver must have had hours of experience. Which was true for both sides in the war. Vary few tankers knew their machines well.

#4099137 - 03/30/15 01:44 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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1982+






#4099139 - 03/30/15 01:47 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: FlashBurn]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
I like this one

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#...mp;user=7248917

diver must have had hours of experience. Which was true for both sides in the war. Vary few tankers knew their machines well.


I think this is test of an AI driver from our game smile

#4099143 - 03/30/15 01:52 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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Chucky Offline
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I have to be honest,I thought the terrain in the game 'looked off' especially the trees but in fact the developers got it pretty well spot-on. Kudos to you guys cheers


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4099149 - 03/30/15 02:04 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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FlashBurn Offline
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Its not quite right. There is always mild elevation changes. This remastered one seems better IMO. And i still want an area of the map at least 3km 3km that represents the more flooded area that histories talk about. Lush bush and grass areas, with narrow bits of passable land. Where fields are they often do not depress. IE.. the areas around fields are raised. Always are. might allow infantry a place to hide. Palm tree groves are never perfectly flat that I ever saw. And always with lots of thick grass. Or like I said, rows of brush if cultivated. No idea what you grow under palm trees, but it seemed to work. Modern bridges.... That don't fall apart. Correct building made from rock and mortar. They are like mini fortresses and often 2 story.

But the basic gist ain't that far off. but if you have been IN this stuff it does not look quite right.



On short... I think the map just needs a little more editing. With a few more new assets. A village that looks right would be quite nice. These look like Afganistan... Only with out 2 way windows. biggrin

Last edited by FlashBurn; 03/30/15 02:06 PM.
#4099319 - 03/30/15 07:35 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: FlashBurn]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
Its not quite right. There is always mild elevation changes.

In this area elevetion changes on 9 m from one side of game area to other (except bumps) in reality (and in game of course too), ie ~9/10000 on each meter in horizontal plane. Are you sure that this can be seen with the naked eye?

All soils are formed by alluvial sands inwashed by river. Therefore, the hardness of the ground is low and consequently no height differences. With the exception of the bumps. As I understand under them are arrays of stones.


In Afghan area practically the same thing - somthing like river floodplain surrounded by hills on the edges.

But already in Angola is another matter, denser soils, and the river is no longer blurs large area. This results in the hills.

Last edited by andrey12345; 03/30/15 07:44 PM.
#4099325 - 03/30/15 07:51 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Photo from Afghan area






As we can see, the same flattern areas as in game.

#4099332 - 03/30/15 07:59 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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And Angola
East river bank




Somewhere along the way smile


#4099333 - 03/30/15 08:02 PM Re: SBOW has alot of HP but does not get the Power on the road [Re: andre2]  
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andrey12345 Offline
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Cuito Cuanavalle (look from east to west)
In war times


Nowadays




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