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#4426409 - 06/16/18 04:31 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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...and she's down for maintenance!

When I put on the oil cooler, I simply put bolts through the bent steel mount and the oil cooler itself.

Turns out that vibration from the engine and flight work hardened the aluminum of the oil cooler mount, and on my last landing - which wasn't as good as the greaser but better than most - the right side of the oil cooler attachment tab failed. Not as in "pulled through the washer" or "cracked," more like "big chunks of the mount tab just came away."

I'm finally going to have a chance to go out and evaluate whether I can salvage it or throw it out and buy a new one.

In hindsight, of course I should have ran a strip of metal on the underside of the cooler and of course put in more bolt holes to even the stresses.

Well, this is why one has a 40 hour test flight duration - to find out stuff like this.

Oh, and for those wondering "what would happen if the oil cooler came off?" the answer is "loss of all oil and the pressure it makes in about the time one could say 'what was that noise?' and landing RIGHT THEN with an engine out."


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#4426412 - 06/16/18 05:09 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Would the addition of rubber or neoprene bushings to absorb the vibrations be feasible?


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#4426486 - 06/17/18 04:49 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Would the addition of rubber or neoprene bushings to absorb the vibrations be feasible?


Yep.

I spent a good chunk of the day measuring and figuring, and so it's going to be a much more reduced profile, a thick rubber strip between the oil cooler and the two metal pieces that will hold it, and a strengthening cross member.

Reducing the angle of the oil cooler solves a lot of issues:

1) I'm cooling a bit too well, and the engine isn't getting up to full operating temperature.
2) With the oil cooler tilted as much as it was, it was really taking a beating with both the prop pushing air on it and the vibration on the engine.
3) It's reducing drag. Hahahahahahaha, I actually typed that! I may get an additional two feet per hour in speed increase. smile


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#4427455 - 06/24/18 01:43 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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So to show you what mounting to the oil cooler tab without a reinforcing strip underneath will do:

[Linked Image]

Metal completely failed!

[Linked Image]

So the plan, as I mentioned, is to reduce the angle of the radiator, put strips underneath, add some vibration stopping baffling rubber material in there, and try again.

Had to do some math problems. Pythagoras, you magnificent b@stard, I read your book! (Mathematics and I are in a long standing war, you see)

[Linked Image]

Because I'm using a thin mild steel for this, I decided to double it up. Plate that will go underneath is also steel.

Ready for paint!

[Linked Image]

Here's the difference in angles between old piece (black) and new:

[Linked Image]


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#4427515 - 06/24/18 01:19 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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#4427623 - 06/25/18 02:19 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Over the past two days I have endeavored to make probably the best example of craftsmanship in regards to my aircraft to date.

Both sides matched each other nearly perfectly (I'm sure a micrometer could spot a discrepancy), and each side was made of two sheets of steel bent to perfectly nest within each other.

The holes all went where they should have gone, and it installed easily with the baffling material to ensure vibration would be at a minimum.

Even the paint is perfect and smooth.

What I didn't take into account in my initial measurements for the reduced profile is this hangy-down part right at the end of the engine block before the starter. Said hangy-down part is 3/16" too long for the oil cooler to traverse under the engine.

Of all the scrap parts I've ever made, I can't think of a single one that quite matches my pride in its manufacture.

So here's to you, perfect oil cooler mount that is less than a quarter inch too short and therefore has to be thrown on the salvage pile; know that the one that will follow and actually fit onto the engine will be no less dear to me.


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#4427831 - 06/26/18 03:45 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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No way to add some mount spacers?


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#4427846 - 06/26/18 05:19 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: ArgonV]  
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Originally Posted by ArgonV
No way to add some mount spacers?


Zero.

The mounts must be one piece, and while it's easy to take metal off, it's impossible to put it back on.

Well, it could be, if one whipped out a welder; but that would be overkill. Total cost of materials wasted? Under six dollars. I'm not sweating it.


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#4428097 - 06/28/18 06:25 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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"...perfect oil cooler mount that is less than a quarter inch too short.."

Ah...but then, it isn't perfect, is it? I am sure, however, that the next one will be.


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#4428310 - 06/30/18 05:00 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart, forgive me if I read your posts wrong
Crushing a layer of rubber between the two parts will not work. You must isolate the parts with a rubber fitting between them.
The mounting bolts of the oil cooler should have a collar that passes through the rubber grommet of the bracket. A good example would be the exhaust silencer of a 2 stroke dirt bike.

edit: or the radiator of most bikes

Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 06/30/18 05:02 AM.

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#4428333 - 06/30/18 01:27 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Originally Posted by Brit44 'Aldo'
Dart, forgive me if I read your posts wrong
Crushing a layer of rubber between the two parts will not work. You must isolate the parts with a rubber fitting between them.
The mounting bolts of the oil cooler should have a collar that passes through the rubber grommet of the bracket. A good example would be the exhaust silencer of a 2 stroke dirt bike.

edit: or the radiator of most bikes



That's why we show our work. smile

On the upside, where it meets the engine, there's going to be isolation.


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#4428385 - 07/01/18 01:42 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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I guess I should flesh this out, as I kind of brushed over it.

Where the mount goes onto the engine, which is the primary source of vibration, it's going to be isolated with a rubber mount with a bushing in the middle of it that the bolt goes through.

The mount itself is on the rubber, off of the engine itself.

The bottom part, the squishy bits, is really just to take some of the shock and friction from the plates above and below the oil cooler itself. The new version of the mount has a steel plate underneath, so that it's holding up the cooler. I also put in two more bolts to even out the stress points.

Will it work? Heck, I dunno, but it'll be better than what I have.

I also have a new oil temp gauge on order, as I think it's a lying sack of [redacted]. The VDO "royale" gauges seem to be unreliable; the tach in that version was kaput out of the box, and no amount of dip switch tomfoolery would ever get it to work. So I'm going with the standard black one.


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#4429099 - 07/06/18 04:01 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Try number two on the cooler mount!

With the last one a beautiful failure, I tried again, making it larger. My reduced 35 degree angle turned out to be much closer to the original 45, though.

[Linked Image]

And done.

[Linked Image]

Of note is four things here:

1) Steel is doubled up. I have no idea if this is going to be an improvement or not; my thinking is that it's going to half my chance of a catastrophic failure before detection.

2) Rubber grommet at the engine mounting points, with washers on both sides larger than the holes. This is to hopefully reduce the vibration on the piece, and if the rubber fails, at least the mount won't fall off the engine.

3) One can't see it, but there is a steel plate under the oil cooler itself holding things together. My first installation had the nuts going just to the cooler itself and it's soft metal. Now it will have to think of a different way to fail. I also put in two more bolts to even out the load on everything.

4) The baffling material on the cooler between the mount and the strip underneath isn't there to prevent vibration as much as it is to reduce the friction between the steel mount and the steel strip against the cooler.

Oddly enough, when I enlarged my mount measurements and bent them, I came pretty close to what was there originally.

Everything ran great and no leaks.

For those wondering where I get my engineering inspiration, note the decal.

[Linked Image]


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#4429126 - 07/06/18 12:48 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Really nice workmanship Dart..I mean REALLY nice.


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#4429837 - 07/11/18 06:25 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart,
I like the design and your explanation. I have one opinion.

The hi temp silicone material between the cooler and the mount is a good choice, but I hope you allow the bolts to tighten upon a collar (or a shoulder) and not simply crush the material.
edit:
LOL, staring at your pic and thinking about the cracking. You make me remember the problems we had with the Decker expansion chambers for the early 90's SeaDoo.

Edit 2
I guess you would not need a bottoming collar if you safety wire the nuts and do not overly crush the silicone material.

Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 07/11/18 06:51 AM.

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#4429888 - 07/11/18 02:34 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Nothing as exotic as all that.

The material is just a sandwich between plates; bog standard locking washers and nuts. On the bottom is a steel plate that runs the entire length of the cooler.

I threw three rivets up the front side of the mount on each side as well, to keep the two pieces from grabbing air and fluttering. I actually had a super experienced aircraft mechanic look at it (Dude is a friggin' legend, or should be. His last job was repairing DC-3 engines in Scandinavia, where the company paid for his trip out and time there) and he gave it a thumbs up.

Funny thing is that at first he didn't even want to speak to me or look at my aircraft. Crazy homebuilts with VW engines make his eye twitch. Then one day I stopped by his hangar to say hello and his little dachshund walked over and sat down next to me, accepted my hand and a scratch behind the ear.

Money can't buy character references like that, and I rose about a zillion percent in his books. Since then he's looked at the aircraft and made pointed observations both positive and negative, but in the main they've been positive. Indeed, I'll probably implement a couple of his recommendations in the future.

I did a big preflight yesterday and took her around the patch - she really flew well.

I'm still suspicious of the oil temp readings, though. It barely cracked 120 degrees by the gauge. True enough I've got a humongerous oil cooler, the engine is well baffled, and am running at around 2200 RPM's at cruise, but that seems really low (considering the ambient temperature was about 90). I'm debating installing a non-electrical temp gauge as a diagnostic tool to see if it's the truth or not.


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#4429957 - 07/12/18 02:01 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Any other temp reference on that engine? I cannot for the life of me remember oil temps for the little Continentals I used to fly. Does sound low....


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#4429963 - 07/12/18 03:40 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Hahaha, there's the funny bit - VW never came up with temperature specifications for the Type I engine.

The Industrial Engine Division of VW came up with a suggested range of 170-220, and a caution above 250. That's about where the idiot light on a VW bug goes off on oil temps. I'm indicating around 130 degrees, just a smidge above the bottom of the gauge's range.

Since VW didn't really publish temp tolerances, the Cylinder Head Temps (CHT) is really a collection of combined wisdom. Anything under or around 350 is good, anything over 450 bad. That's a huge, huge tolerance.

The bonus plan is that all air cooled engines depend on ambient air temperature to cool them. So today when I flew at 95 degrees ambient (brought down to about 90 as I climbed up), the engine is going to run a little hotter. It's enough to where more than one experten has suggested that CHT's and even oil temp gauges on VW engines are just borrowing worry. If it runs, it runs. Don't tax it too hard when it's hot out.

It's also not unreasonable that my oil temp readings will be on the low side.

A) I've got about as good an oil cooling setup as one could make.
B) I'm working off a sensor at the back of the engine, so it should be cooler anyhow.

The downside to oil not getting up to 170 or so is that any water in the oil will tend to stay and not boil off. That's it. This is actually a huge problem if an engine sits. In an engine like mine, it gets a lot of use, and even bringing it up to 120 will probably boil it off - plus that's the total temp of the pool of oil; it's much hotter in other places in the engine, like when it's covering the crank and camshaft.

Hot oil also lubes better because it's thinner, which is why I'm running the recommended 20-50 rather than 30W.

While I don't have a CHT, I did a little unscientific check after landing and the long taxi by placing a thermometer on the heads themselves. It's unscientific because the fins on the head aren't the best place to check it. Plus, measuring the temperature after a mile of walking pace taxi should make the temps higher. I came away with 320 degrees. Spot another 40 just for fun, and it's 360, which is in the green zone.

The biggest thing is that I'm not asking much of this engine. I climb out at around 3100 RPM, and quickly go to a just-above-cruise of 2500 RPM and then cruise at 2200.

It's almost a vanity project, like the altimeter and airspeed indicator. Since it's on the panel, I want it to work.

[edit]

If you want to see a layout of today's very short flight with all sorts of data, 3D track, etc., click on this:

http://www.cloudahoy.com/debrief/?key=U7grdD7nUzQeTI

A few notes:

1) I tried to force her into the air on takeoff, which she wasn't having. Damn you, density altitude!
2) I've been shooting for better climb rates. I don't like the profile that gives me 500 fpm climb. She's pretty nose high, and it feels slow.
3) While they were in the distance, I noticed the clouds were starting to produce rain, and I didn't want to deal with the wind that would generate.
4) Plus it starting getting bumpy.
5) Now that I've started really getting a handle on wheel landings the last two times out I've three pointed her. Today I did a marvelous flare right at the stall. Unfortunately I was about a foot or so too high, so it was a minor three point bounce and then the three point landing. Again, it's nose high and visibility is super crappy.



Last edited by Dart; 07/12/18 03:56 AM.

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#4430145 - 07/13/18 03:02 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Have you tried a Infrared thermometer? I would think that one end of your oil cooler hoses should match the gauge.

Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 07/13/18 03:04 AM. Reason: IR not lazer

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#4431150 - 07/20/18 03:35 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Er, my memory is sh*t.

Cylinder temps were 260, not 360. So pretty dang cool.


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