I am looking for a game who would have the hardware, troops and terrain graphics definition of CMBN, TOW2, CMRT, Panzer Command and Close Combat with maps big enough to practice MW.
Arma, IF44, SBProPE do not cut it for that type of fundamental combined arm tactics, as I experienced in the past.
Games like Command OPS: Battles from the bulge, Highway to the Reich and Battles for Greece, are great but the graphic definition was mediocre.
Anyone has any ideas?...
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
I'm not aware of any of the fidelity of CM style games with twice the scope. Once you get to that size it's not very effective to graphically represent everything.
Short of Steel Beasts I'm afraid I don't know
Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds. Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
I am looking for a game who would have the hardware, troops and terrain graphics definition of CMBN, TOW2, CMRT, Panzer Command and Close Combat with maps big enough to practice MW.
Arma, IF44, SBProPE do not cut it for that type of fundamental combined arm tactics, as I experienced in the past.
Games like Command OPS: Battles from the bulge, Highway to the Reich and Battles for Greece, are great but the graphic definition was mediocre.
Anyone has any ideas?...
I have been looking for a true combined arms simulation for a long time myself. SB meets most of your criteria big maps, hardware but lacks CAS. (with the exception of gunships) Its a while away but SB is due a big upgrade/update sometime next year. Esim are the opposite of DCS who tend to give to much information to early, With esim you mite get the odd snippet of information. But wont get the full content to near its release date. But I have a gut feeling combined arms is going to be given a major upgrade in the next release.
Speaking of DCS, why not Combined Arms? Heck, it was on sale for only $6 the other day which is a complete steal for what you get.
"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
I am looking for a game who would have the hardware, troops and terrain graphics definition of CMBN, TOW2, CMRT, Panzer Command and Close Combat with maps big enough to practice MW.
...do not cut it for that type of fundamental combined arm tactics, as I experienced in the past.
Speaking of DCS, why not Combined Arms? Heck, it was on sale for only $6 the other day which is a complete steal for what you get.
Thank you Marko. I need maps big enough to have surfaces and gaps. The only games I haven't tried so far are "Combat mission Afghanistan" and "Combat mission black sea" and HPS "Decisive Action" and "Point of Attack-2".
@Toonces: DCS does not work for what I am looking for. I had DCS for years and was never satisfied.
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
I am looking for a game who would have the hardware, troops and terrain graphics definition of CMBN, TOW2, CMRT, Panzer Command and Close Combat with maps big enough to practice MW.
...do not cut it for that type of fundamental combined arm tactics, as I experienced in the past.
What's your main point of contention?
Ssnake,
I don't have a point of disagreement.
I am looking for something very specific that deals within the core of MW. I actually think we had a conversation(exchanging e-mail) one year ago regarding maps and missions for SBproPE and different type of licenses, which overlapped on that subject. I even supplied samples of maps that were confused for US Army magazine vignettes.
I am still looking for the same thing.
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
I have many email conversations, impossible to remember them all. Anyway, I wasn't so much after "agreement" or "disagreement" about a specific simulation. It's that I might not yet understand what it is that you're looking for. Maybe what you want doesn't exist, but for a qualified statement I first need to understand what the perceived deficits of the simulations are that you mentioned. What's the tactical (operational?) scope of the combat action that you want to simulate. What terrain size do you expect. Is everything to be handled by a single person. Real-time, or faster than that, or turn based? Desired level of fidelity for simulation results (procedures, too?).
Maybe Battle Command. You'd have to push someone for more scenarios though. It's an impressive engine but needs more scenarios at this point. Actual terrain and LOS data puts it closer to CM and SBproPE than the hex-based wargames.
As far as simulating the OODA loop I think Flashpoint: Red Storm is impressive. Your turn resolution varies with external factors like EW, command unit readiness, range and availability etc. Basically, all other things remaining the same, the more you're getting hammered, the longer you have to wait until you can give new orders and the longer it will take for your orders to get out to the troops.
Nothing graphically impressive, but 'hammering' troops - and striking rear echelon units - has a tangible operational payoff beyond mere attrition.
Also, Graviteam Tactics games (like Operation Star) are similar to CM in mechanics but what I've seen was on a much larger scale. Maps were absolutely huge. I was kind of overwhelmed though, frankly, and didn't dive in.
Don Quixote's misfortune is not his imagination, but Sancho Panza.
What I want exist but at such levels of complexity and real technology that a market does not exist, outside certain training circles of the DOD.
However, at a WWII level of complexity and technology it might. I won't tell you what I don't want, but tell you what I am looking for:
I want to be able to practice Flaechen & Luenkentaktik (fluids surfaces and gaps). I want to be able to practice Auftragstaktic (Mission Tactics). You know the anecdote from Prince Frederick Charles: "The King made you a major because he thought you were smart enough to know when not to obey orders". I want to // // // Scwherpunkt (a main effort). I want // // // // Angrieffsziel (The aiming point, physical end towards which the efforts are directed). Important concept especially when the enemy is mobile. I // // // // the concept of reserve (1/3, 2/3). I // // // // the concept of "Timing": duration, velocity, frequency, sequencing, delaying, surprising.
Then a game where responsibility is rewarded, not accountability.
Finally, no restraint to movement.
Possibility to inspect the terrain myself, hence the need of a good graphic definition.
The concept is WWII MW at a Regimental level, Colonel or Brigadier General with a STAFF. Alone with AI against another player with AI staff, or against AI, or with a staff of player against another player and his staff of players.
Turn based would be fine.
Finally a map size: a third of France would do, especially the North, North-Western part see map attached, roughly 500 miles over 500 miles. Besides, France is not a classified territory.
So if you have any ideas, they are welcomed, even if their scope is smaller than what I am looking for.
Maybe Battle Command. You'd have to push someone for more scenarios though. It's an impressive engine but needs more scenarios at this point. Actual terrain and LOS data puts it closer to CM and SBproPE than the hex-based wargames.
As far as simulating the OODA loop I think Flashpoint: Red Storm is impressive. Your turn resolution varies with external factors like EW, command unit readiness, range and availability etc. Basically, all other things remaining the same, the more you're getting hammered, the longer you have to wait until you can give new orders and the longer it will take for your orders to get out to the troops.
Nothing graphically impressive, but 'hammering' troops - and striking rear echelon units - has a tangible operational payoff beyond mere attrition.
Also, Graviteam Tactics games (like Operation Star) are similar to CM in mechanics but what I've seen was on a much larger scale. Maps were absolutely huge. I was kind of overwhelmed though, frankly, and didn't dive in.
Amaroq,
You have great ideas. I will inspect those games and in some cases re-inspect them, as new ideas came up reading your post.
Thank you
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
Maybe Battle Command. You'd have to push someone for more scenarios though. It's an impressive engine but needs more scenarios at this point. Actual terrain and LOS data puts it closer to CM and SBproPE than the hex-based wargames.
As far as simulating the OODA loop I think Flashpoint: Red Storm is impressive. Your turn resolution varies with external factors like EW, command unit readiness, range and availability etc. Basically, all other things remaining the same, the more you're getting hammered, the longer you have to wait until you can give new orders and the longer it will take for your orders to get out to the troops.
Nothing graphically impressive, but 'hammering' troops - and striking rear echelon units - has a tangible operational payoff beyond mere attrition.
Also, Graviteam Tactics games (like Operation Star) are similar to CM in mechanics but what I've seen was on a much larger scale. Maps were absolutely huge. I was kind of overwhelmed though, frankly, and didn't dive in.
Amaroq,
You have great ideas. I will inspect those games and in some cases re-inspect them, as new ideas came up reading your post.
Thank you
Let us know what you conclude. Looking at that map you linked I'm inclined to say only C:MANO offers the combination of huge geographical scale and high tactical resolution, but in CMANO you'd be running the land warfare aspect at a relatively high level of abstraction. Land units are classed as 'facilities' and move like ships. They do seem to take terrain into account for movement speed, but that's about it.
Depending on what you're after that may be enough though. It's funny actually how CMANO would probably need just a little nudge to become a pretty crazy 'General Warfare' sim.
Don Quixote's misfortune is not his imagination, but Sancho Panza.
Well, I have CMANO since their inception, and it did not really do it for me in asw.
I am interested by your description of Flashpoint: Red Storm, taking place in Germany in the 80's.
Then I am thinking about revisiting Achtung Panzer Kharkov 1943 and Operation Star. And I am also waiting for Ssnake input.
Do you have any insight on CM Black Sea?
Finding this post very interesting Gunnyhighway. How knowledgeable are you with the SB map/mission editor I would say its possible to create what your looking for using both. As for cold war era AFV's I think it would be hard to beat SB. its a dam shame you don't have access to the military version of SB The Maps are huge so I am told.
That was one of the subject brought up a year ago in the conversation with Ssnake, but to no avail.
The pedestrian version map/mission editor does not allow to create terrain. I would have to ask a third person to design for me something I could do myself at lower cost. Areas of the world that I covered on foot or bicycle and that I remember so well. It is kept under tight control.
I am still looking for alternatives.
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
Not much in-depth, but it's pretty much a brushed-up CMSF (I mean that in a good way). Maps can get big but not big enough for what you're after IMO. Combined arms yes, but not really maneuver warfare. I mean, the key concepts are there, but the scale is probably on the small side.
Generally I'd say the concept of 'victory points' for geographical areas can be detrimental to the more fluid and relative viewpoint of meneuver warfare as I understand it. Depending on where the enemy goes, certain areas would become more or less valuable. E.g. if the enemy is hunkered down in a town, securing his resupply axis is much more valuable than if he has retreated from the town, at which point that resupply axis is just another piece of land.
Don Quixote's misfortune is not his imagination, but Sancho Panza.
I liked Panzer corps or more accurately Panzer General when it came out some 10 years ago. It was a nice surprise at the time for PC gamers. Its successor does not do it for me today.
Unity of Command, was able to illustrate one of the many problems the Germans encountered in Russia, which was the difficulty to secure abundant communication lines, especially since they did not secure the support of the civilian population everywhere and for very long. It also does illustrate the importance of timing in combat. It does not explain the reasons why it is so important to secure that time dimension, but it does it anyhow. The combination of those two factors in an indie game was a surprise. It is also a pleasant introduction to gamers whishing to enlarge the scope of their historical perception of a conflict.
But it still does not do it for me.
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
I am interested in the same sorts of things. I have been experimenting with ArmA2's & Iron Front's high command system, with my own personal tweaks ( as well as the Nice Boat Tank Damage System http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?84673-Nice_Boat-Tank-Damage-System ) that far increases the realism of the stock armour, even if it is still not at Steel Beasts standards. In the case of ArmA2, I have made a more or less useable US Army Combined Arms Battalion, while for Iron Front, I have been making rather more rag-tag German Kampfgruppen and Soviet units of varying strength. I have also made a command camera that sort of works.
I have tried to implement everything from company team formations to my own supporting fires systems to things that just make the stock HC system more useable and flexible.
Finally, I have found a rather limited but interesting command sim called March to Baghdad: Decision at Talil Air Base. It's free!
