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#4085549 - 02/28/15 09:08 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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I don't wish to antagonize you Ronin_GE nor Amaroq, but if you answer those questions you know what to do. Besides, this is a thread about MW, so MW deontology is the code.

Mission tactics: the Red subordinate must be informed of what is the output desired by the Red commander in order to achieve it with a high degree of initiative and a higher tempo than the enemy to keep the initiative. So what is the output desired by the Red commander Ronin_GE? Prevent the blue from using the airport to land re-enforcement??...to evacuate from that airport?...Prevent the blue force from existing?...Why the heck do you want the REDS to take that airport?????...you have to explain the Red commander desired output!!! The tactic of the mission, is to rely on subordinates to carry out the mission. That allows the subordinates to make decision faster than the enemy and appropriate to the mission, so the enemy which relegate decision to higher levels, will have a response which will come too late for execution.

The Red subordinate has the latitude to attack, defend or withdraw within the scope of the mission assignment, and depending upon his decision, will select his own aiming points or Angriffziel: The physical end toward which the red effort is directed. Moreover, those Angriffziel changes as the situation develop. As long as no mission tactics is defined, the subordinate cannot have an Angriffziel!

Attacking the Airport and taking the railway knot does not mean anything to me. What is the bigger picture?

Think in the following terms: Your Father, Uncle, Brothers, Friends, Wife and Children are members of that Red Force. Are you going to risk the life of your love ones into pitting force against force to a head on charge on that airport?...

A word about reserve: 1/3 2/3. You reserve should be 2/3 of your force, and only be used to bring the coup de grace to the enemy. The last strikes that will make you win. However, being MW, those concepts are very flexible since they are supposed to fit the immediate needs toward victory, not toward defeat.

And I can't say more, because I don't know that map, the forces at play, the big pictures, which forces use MW, both of them?...one of them?

It is scripted anyway, so anything you script is supposed to happen the way you wish it would happen. Build up a delayed response within the force that does not use MW, and that would already be a first step to illustrate MW.


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#4085555 - 02/28/15 09:25 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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I think we're just approaching the same common ground from different sides. biggrin

I think what Ronin_GE means is exactly what you say here:
Quote:
The Red subordinate has the latitude to attack, defend or withdraw within the scope of the mission assignment, and depending upon his decision, will select his own aiming points or Angriffziel: The physical end toward which the red effort is directed. Moreover, those Angriffziel changes as the situation develop. As long as no mission tactics is defined, the subordinate cannot have an Angriffziel!

Me, I was on a far more superficial level. I just meant that one should not be frustrated that you can't reflect the broad strokes in a simulation of limited scope when you can just superimpose them on whatever you can simulate.

As you say: Why the airport? If you can give some broader MW context to that, you suddenly can simulate MW even with a limited scope of simulation.


Don Quixote's misfortune is not his imagination, but Sancho Panza.
#4085564 - 02/28/15 09:56 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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It is a pincer movement then! thumbsup...I agree with you!


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#4085577 - 02/28/15 10:36 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Ok, I had to google deontology, as the translator only spit out: Deontologie.

yep

When simulating something, I think one should stay within the scope of the scenario.
You should add "one level above" but not more. Otherwise it come to: Why have that war in the 1st place.
You are right, in my statement i did not give a reason why to attack or hold the airport. And this is necessary for blue or red to define the "parameters" of the scenario. And would decide weather it was a "win" or not. If I don't give a broader context: blue could hold the airport but be reduced to 25%? Red takes the airport but losses 50% and blue unit are able to fall back in order?...noone cares unless the mission states something different. For that mapsize and with the limitations of the software I can only go to company/Bn level. The higher level can be somewhat included with "commanders intent" in the OPORD.

You're right, I have to think "from the commanders intent" on.
When making the plan for RED I must striktly have the desired output in mind. So I can set diffent endresults the require diffenent CoA for the attacking force.
=> take terrain X/Y NLT time...
=> destroy /neutralize enemy forces in the area of...
=> hold the taken terrain till...
=> after attack be ready for *kind of operation* NLT.
Therefor giving RED "a guideline" in which way and speed to attack or what kind of losses are aceptable.

As for the scripting itself.
To develop the scenario for RED I'd have to deploy recon, evtualy recon in force IOT identify the blue main effort.
The depending on the red guideline=> bind blue and bypass, bind blue and flank attack or bind blue and cut them off.
These are options that can be handled with the game logic and a "few" zones, conditions and event triggers. If I'd want more sophistication, I must have red crewed by human players.


edit: just one Thing: 2/3s of your force as a reserve is pretty exessive. What tactical level are you talking about?

Last edited by Ronin_GE; 02/28/15 10:40 PM.

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#4085630 - 02/28/15 11:53 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Ronin_GE]  
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Originally Posted By: Ronin_GE

edit: just one Thing: 2/3s of your force as a reserve is pretty exessive. What tactical level are you talking about?


There are a lot of answers like that in MW: It depends upon the circumstances!

Sorry, that is the best answer I could come up with!...The less the enemy sees your force on the field, the less he knows what you are doing. Your reserve could be deployed somewhere it is not needed. But one third on your force is exposed to combat friction and two thirds in reserve ready to exploit some opportunities. So no, it is not excessive to me. But, it could for someone else!...It was not excessive for Napoleon....It is an economic principle!...You realize 2/3 of you sales figures with 1/3 of your clientele. 2/3 of your sales is realized by 1/3 of your sales force, etc, etc...

what level?..any!...u could have a fire team of six men, and use 2 to do a job, while 4 others would be on stand by, close by, ready to support.


Last edited by Gunnyhighway; 03/01/15 12:49 AM.

Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#4085911 - 03/01/15 06:38 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Ok, maybe we are talking about a diffent idea/definition of "reserve"?

Usually school of thought see the reserve as a formation not tasked with any other mission, apart from the stadart "24/7" tasks:liasion, security, observation...to name a few.

You could argue that a company advancing in wedge formation has 2/3 rds of its strength in reserve. While realy the two "side platoons" are already commited to f.e. securing the flanks.

Of course it is nice to have 2/3 of your force as reserve, it massively increases your flexibility.
But you can only realy afford that, if you are very very superior to your enemy. Both in terms of numbers and intel.

In all field-EX, CP-EX, Map-EX and operations I ever took part in reserves where between 1/4 to maximum 1/2 of the own force. With 1/2 beeing a rare case(f.e. attack with 2xcompany abreast, 2 following)
The point is that you need to put the oposition under enough preasure to force them to make mistakes...and in that process spot the gap and weaknesses where you can deploy your reserve to some benefit.

As in that process plan: 1st you need to knock a hole into the enemy plan=>then get inside their planning cycle while they try to fix it.
Your initial commitment needs to be big enough to knock that hole. Then your reserve needs to be free of any other task (ungebunden) so they can jump in fast enough, before OPFOR can react.


nec cupias, nec metuas

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#4085970 - 03/01/15 08:17 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Before talking about anything else, did you run a critical operational vulnerability analysis of your enemy's resources and how to meet them?

Forget school of thought!...This is the realm of MW!...Besides a lot of countries have a different definition of MW.

You want me to cite the USMC MCDP1?...Chances are, you won't agree with their definition of MW, and the USMC don't even apply it.

If you don't like 1/2 2/3 then don't do it, it is a guideline. Do what you think fits the big picture.

Run your operation 10 times and see what you get as a ratio.

Then, let the results decides what could have been improved!


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#4086427 - 03/02/15 06:57 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Ronin_GE, what is your callsign in the SBPproPE forum?


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#4086439 - 03/02/15 07:14 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Originally Posted By: Gunnyhighway
Ronin_GE, what is your callsign in the SBPproPE forum?


Shot fired at SB.com...


nec cupias, nec metuas

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Panzerbataillon 911(v) Webseite
www.steelbeasts.org
#4086459 - 03/02/15 08:08 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Ronin_GE]  
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Du you need back up?... winkngrin


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#4088815 - 03/07/15 12:41 AM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Originally Posted By: Gunnyhighway
Before talking about anything else, did you run a critical operational vulnerability analysis


Paul, stop with all the big words!

and for fun I will drop the keep it simple card:

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy.
Horatio Nelson

and that other one, "never mind maneuvers, just go at them"


Yep, I don't post allot. But I still love you.
#4090764 - 03/11/15 05:56 PM Re: Maneuver Warfare games [Re: Hammer*]  
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Hammer,

This is how I feel right now: http://www.4shared.com/music/GdRstPTdce/inthit.html

LOL! hahaha


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
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