VKB Gladiator joystick project.


http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14343-vkb-gladiator-joystick-project/#entry227060

Since the target is a "budget" (80-90$) joystick is not HOTAS, but all in one piece. The HOTAS format will double the price. This don't pretend compete in "high end" HOTAS market (Warthog, X55...)

8 axis
1 HAT
39 buttons - include 5 Encoders*
MaRS digital sensor in X,Y, rudder (twist) axis.
Potentiometer on other 5 axis (throttle, mixture, flaps...).
USB controller Njoy32 - able to handle more than 100 virtual buttons and use virtual axis with mode switch.

* Rotaries with encoder allow "trim on wheels" in certain WWII Combat Flight Game.
Or can be used to set DI, Course Setter, Bombsight, gunsight... in games like CLoD.

"Why WWII piston propeller plane style?
1) The market is already full of joysticks from leading brands, stylized as modern combat aircraft.
2) Most of virtual pilots to fly it on the pistons propeller planes.
3) I love piston aircraft of that era, and since the final decision to launch the project to take me, I quickly and without a doubt chose piston design and ergonomics. Here and so took office."

The grip with 3 buttons and HAT is based on Luftwaffe KG12 grip with some concessions, the pinkie button is located more high/accessible and the B-Knopf button is a HAT switch.

Sokol1

Interesting, and maybe a very good solution for some, especially if it has a decent set of gimbals.

A few more buttons on the stick and I just might buy that for a friend!

That looks just what I need! I don't play modern sims anymore.

Thats a very interesting concept. Can't wait to see the finished product.

Despite only 3 physical buttons on stick, the VKB controller allow 3 modes and thus more 6 virtual buttons, (IMO) sufficient for WWII planes.

maybe, but it still needs a POV hat switch, IMO. If someone is shopping the mid-tier joystick market, they likely don't have trackIR. I think that also gets to the heart of why we have more modern combat sticks; you can always not use buttons you don't have, but trying to go the other direction and using a WWII type stick in a modern military aircraft gets clunky real fast. Yes, it sacrifices immersion to an extent, but at this price range you're targeting people who need function first. Plus, you've already thrown immersion out the window by not allowing folks to split out the throttle and stick.

that said, I might buy one just for the throttle alone. Mated next to my warthog throttle, I'd have an axis for everything!

Surprised that splitting the throttle out HOTAS style would "double" the price though. We really need to see more throttles on the market.

The "B-Knopf" (left side) is a HAT with concave button.

Most of entry-level sticks has HAT + 4 buttons on grip. This has HAT + 3 buttons in 3 modes.
The question is the design chosen - the KG-12 - will be difficult add more buttons without ruin the design...

Other question is, they need find a way to easy sold outside of Russia, their previous products - done for 3rd part hardware distributtors - the Defender Cobra M5 Joystick and Gametrix ECS Throttle, was limited to the local market.

Why don't more manufacturers choose to add an alternate yaw control like the TM HOTAS X?
It is much better than stick twist yaw since it is impossible to accidentally use it during quick/ hard maneuvers. Also, your wrist isn't subjected to such weird poses when using a lot of rudder in a maneuver.Besides that, applying rudder will never accidentally "wiggle" the stick since it is separate.

Sure these are by no means big problems, but dual throttle really isn't necessary for WWII fightersim anyway. (as opposed to modern flight sim's warthog popularity)

Pictures of pre-production prototype.

Super Cool, too bad throttle cannot be detached.

Looks very good to me. If it has magnetic hall gimbols (or whatever they call them) I would look at getting one.

Cheers MarkL

Looks good. Wonder what the price point is at.
I suppose it would depend on what VKD consider budget

This was posted in the il2 fourms (linked in first post)




Personally, I'll buy one, maybe 2, at the price point of $70 to use in other projects. Even if they aren't easily split-able, a hack saw and a soldering iron can likely fix that issue.

That's just the kind of stick I'm looking for! Sokol,do you know when we might see it over here? I realise it's still in development.

Attention, this drawings is only a study of "virpilov's" (Russian) feedback/wishes about Gladiator project, not confirmed changes in the design!

Gladiator STANDARD



Gladiator PRO



Gladiator EXPERT



Someone already suggest provide a support for 7" Tablet bellow this center panel.

Sokol1, where is he asking us to leave this feedback?

In any event, my thoughts:

-Stick only has no draw for me personally. Lots of sticks like that out there already.

-Might as well make the throttle detachable for pics 2. I suspect that won't make it any more expensive to produce at that point. It owuld make sense to connect the 2 with a cable instead of the posts. I'd certainly buy that design

-Third design is intriguing, but I suspect it would blow costs out a bit more. If he can bring it to market, I'd be in all in. Would love to see some rotaries on the panel box as opposed to what appear to be 3 scroll wheels. The roataries would be better for adjusting things like radios and AP heading in FSX/DCS, where as the scroll wheels seem redundant to several of the controls below.

Overall, I'd move the small lever on the stick base to the throttle side, and frankly do away with buttons on the base (either remove them alltogether to save cost, or redesign the throttle base to house more buttons.. Maybe it's just me, but I never use buttons on the stick base, as that hand is busy controlling the plane, while the left hand is better suited to manage systems.

VKB have a section in the Russian forum o IL-2 BoS:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2579-gladiator-novyj-byudzhetnyj-dzhoj-ot-vkb/



I agree whit you, in the old joystick that I re-wire fore USB (Suncom, CH) I erase button and throttle on joystick base, funcions only in the grip.

Buttons in stick base is for "3in1" joysticks.

IMHO buttons on base are ok in case they are accessible for right hand - eg there is always something to click before takeoff. Lot of joysticks are designed like you mentioned "3in1" so the base buttons are accessible only with left hand what in reality makes them not useful. As mentioned left hand is busy with systems (chips, beer, etc.)

Nice "teaser", clear oriented to IL-2 BoS/BoM:

http://www.asian-games.com.tw/2015/JS-3601V/images/PaceWheel-140314.mp4

http://www.asian-games.com.tw/2015/JS-3601V/

Hmmm... Getting "Server Not Found".

Same, went over bandwidth error message

Gladiator Light (single axis throttle) mockup update:





Back side connectors: In "PEDALS" can be connected a VKB T-Rudder or RDR MKXXI (no USB controller versions), in "SYS" a VKB "button box" or throttle.

Looking awesome. Any ETA on availability and prices yet?

This needs to ship soon so I can rob the grip off of it.

g.

Maybe September/October...

IDK, I think the 'lite' stick version is launching into a crowded market segment, dominated by Saitek.

The one with the attached throttles is far more differentiated, and would have a better shot at sales success.

New prototype after 20 modifications.



"When we created this joystick, we did not want to just make a joystick.
We really wanted to create a joystick with a "special aura".
Do not just give to the joystick good technical characteristics.
And this feeling give to Gladiator a different touch.
This joystick is not just a piece of "plastered" buttons.
Feel like thousands of pilots of World War II, sitting in the cramped cockpit of his Yak or Messerschmitt fought until death.
We assume the risk of bringing to mass market this model of joystick whose grip is not just a piece of plastic.
Many people will don't take into account this device to its modern games.
But we are sure that fans of the World War II era Aviation will appreciate our work and support us."

Gladiator PRO differential features (same visual of Gladiator).

- Metal gimbal with 12 ball bearings
- No "twist rudder" - connection for T-Rudder, like others Gladiator.
- Detachable grip, the base accept Tm grips (Cougar, Warthog...) or other with sifter register inside (adapter needed).

VKB_Stratojet announcement: http://www.gostratojet.com/Marketing/VKB_Stratojet_Press_Release_Final.pdf

Wow it's nice to see this product getting closer and closer. Nice work Sokol!

Like I indicated in another thread I hope we can get some of these models in Australia somehow.

These look very nice for WWI & WWII sims.

Regards MarkL

Mamba MK.III Limited Edition pre-order and T-Rudder "virtual toe brakes".

Gunfight CAM gimbal is a charm.

"All pre-orders, paid on 10 December 2015 will receive a free engraving PERSONAL BODY NAVIGATION (LOGO squad or call sign). The offer is limited. AFTER RECEIVING pre-order we will contact your TRANSMISSION TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS FOR engraving."

I see Budget in the title but the price suggests otherwise, still it looks cool

I think you are confusing the FM Mk.III price with the Gladiator (for which the price has not yet been released)

The "gut" of "Bourgeois" version of Gladiator.

These look really nice. I'd definitely purchase a Gladiator lite or the full version. I got a bit mixed up in all the postings, does the Gladator lite have a twist stick rudder axis?

Twist. More info here.

Production sample.


how to take a screen shot

Just curious, does anyone here actually use joystick base buttons? Even when I was using a single stick with integrated throttle, I never really used the base buttons. Keyboard felt more natural.

Ideal package for me (using as a secondary WWII focused HOTAS) would be the WWII style handle with a great gimble (last image posted by Sokol1 would fit the bill) and a button and axis laden throttle.

Agree, when I use my "steep" joystick (Tm. T-16000M) on desktop I prefer use keyboard than base buttons.

But the target market for this Gladiator, the "new guy/casual guy" want this kind o integration.

What should be really interesting is Gladiator PRO, with the new CAM metal gimbal.

Additional information about Gladiator (translated using GT ):


EDIT - Official English version posted in VKB forum: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2282

=====================================================================

Since the idea of Gladiator to its appearance in the form of finished product took two years.



We did not make Gladiator development a secret and share information about the creation of this joystick with virtual pilots community.
We are very pleased that our development has caused quite a lot of interest on your part.
In this topic we will briefly explain what in the end we have got and what a Gladiator.
The format "question and answer" most suited for the occasion.
So, let's begin.
 
Question: Why was chosen design in the style of aircraft of World War II?

Answer: There are several reasons.
Firstly, the WKB team prefers simulators with piston engines aircraft's (warbirds) and early jets.
WWII - a part of our history that should not be forgotten.
Second, the market is not saturated with joysticks with this design.
There is only Saitek Aviator and there is fierce competition (in "jets/"spaceships" joystick design).
But developing this model, we tried to put a functional joystick, sufficient not only for the simulation of WWII.
Fortunately, the capabilities of our controllers permit.
  
Question: What is the mechanism of loading (gimbal) located inside the joystick Gladiator?

Answer: WKB was one of the main developers of Defender Cobra M5 joystick.
For 5 years of production and operation of this joystick, we studied the strengths and weaknesses of its design.
We made a number of improvements and improved design of the loading mechanism (gimbal).



Replaced plastic material. Now loading mechanism (gimbal) is made of glass fiber reinforced plastic, which is sturdier.
On the gimbal axes are made grooves for the lubrication of this axes.
Grease is not squeezed out of the holes and running uniformly over its entire surface.
We used a thick damping grease, which makes the course knob "viscous".
We also improved the mold for casting, trying to fit as much as possible the details of each other.
It was finalized finalized twist (rudder) mechanism.
Gladiator twist is reinforced and has a stiffer spring.
This video demonstrates the difference between the behavior of the Gladiator loading mechanism (gimbal) from its predecessor - Defender Cobra M5.



Question: Why the central position of Gladiator handle Gladiator has an area of ​​very soft run with virtually no resistance.
This is backlash?

Answer: No, we did it on purpose.
Analysis of virtual pilots preferences showed that many prefer sticks with a very soft behavior at the center.
The strong "step" (of other joysticks), which holds the handle in the center prevents accurate aiming.
To deflect the grip a very small angle it is necessary to make an effort to overcome this "step". In one way this makes feel the center "step" on joystick axis, but on other way prevents precise control in approximately central position.
What is important is balance. And we have tried to implement it. To give priority to the soft behavior handle in the middle, rather than clear and hard to return to the center.
Appointment damper grease - remove the "emptiness" of the movement handle in a near-central zone.
We understand pilots like of such behavior, whose plane hangs "on the handle."
And for the pilots with little experience this can cause problems.
In this case, we recommend to increase the pitch and roll axes dead zone using WIZZO utility.
In the (default) factory settings, it has a very small value.
Again, we did it on purpose to give the fullest possible axes control zone roll and pitch.

Question: Why in joystick factory (default) settings is a fairly large value of the dead zone put the on twist axis (rudder)?

Answer: This is done to parry "parasitic" twist deviations when the pilot operates only on the roll \ pitch axes. You can change "twist" deadzone by using WIZZO program.

Question: Why the joystick grip in the center position is rotated by a small angle counterclockwise.

Answer: This is related to ergonomics. It is much easier to keep the grip when she has a little twist counterclockwise. In many real-world aircraft the grip set just so, with a little twist.

Question: Is it possible to connected control additional devices to Gladiator?

Answer: Yes.




In the panel in front of Gladiator is located two connectors.
In "Pedals" connector can be connected the rudder pedals VKB T-Rudder and WKB-Mk18-Mk21 pedals.
"SYS" connector is for connecting control devices that still in development - throttle and additional multifunction panel.

Q: What options are available to upgrade Gladiator?

Answer: Gladiator laid enough rich features upgrade.
You can replace the joystick gimbal with all metal (CAM) centering mechanism, making your joystick a Gladiator Pro.



Gladiator PRO all metal centering mechanism (gimbal) has a detachable rod for grip.
With a adapter you can install the grip of Defender Cobra M5 or Trustmaster Warthog (Cougar) joysticks.
WKB is also developing a new multi-function grip for lovers of modern combat aircraft or space simulators.
Gladiator controller allows you to connect additional axes and buttons. Controller PCB is marked with the appropriate space for additional sealing connectors.

Q: What controller is installed in the Gladiator joystick?
Answer: Gladiator (controller) is based on platform of our own development - NJoy32.



It is a powerful 32-bit ARM-controller. The controller operates at the USB-protocol. The main principle of the controller - software and driver independence.
This means that for normal operation of the device does not need install third-party drivers and software.
The controller has the ability to upgrade firmware via USB.
In Gladiator KG12 grip is set another microcontroller.
It collects information of twist axis (rudder) and button pressing on grip and sends it to the main controller via a digital protocol using a three-wire interface.

Question: What sensors are used?
A: Roll and pitch axis use separate non-contact magnetic sensors MaRS (Magneto Resistive Sensor).



The concept of "one sensor for each axis" helps to eliminate parasitic influence of one axis to the other in case of wear joystick boot mechanism.
Total operating MaRS sensors showed his best side. High accuracy, linearity and stability - a "calling card" of MaRS probes.
MaRS sensor is also mounted on joystick twist axis (rudder).



In 2004 WKB became one of the first to use MARS sensors in pedals and joysticks.
Currently, we are the first to use high-precision non-contact sensor for the twist (rudder) in our first mass joystick.
Rudder axis just is important for aircraft operation as well was pitch and roll axes!
In addition to high-precision, non-contact twist (rudder) design greatly extends the life of the joystick.

Q: What is WIZZO?

Answer: WIZZO - is a utility designed to configure the joystick controller.



WIZZO has a simple and intuitive interface and currently implements the following functionality: calibration of the joystick axes, setting "dead zones", the reverse axes.
The utility has the ability to load and save profiles of axes and joystick buttons.
Also, using this tool, you can enter the joystick in firmware update mode.
WIZZO program is not necessary for the operation of the joystick.
She only writes data to controller memory.
Suffice it once to write the data and then never run the program WIZZO.
Due saved settings in its own non-volatile memory, the Gladiator will work the same on different computers and operating systems and does not require re-configuration and calibration.

WIZZO is available for download here http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Programms/

Question: Why WIZZO?

The answer: a Weapon Systems Officer ( "WSO", in English is pronounced "wizzo").
As called the weapons operator in airplanes and helicopters.
And also it's a great name for joystick configuration utility :-)

Question: Is it possible configure Gladiator via VKB Device Config program?
Answer: Yes, you can.



A most complete joystick customization joystick is done with this program.
But VKB Device Config utility requires knowledge for working with her.
We recommend the use of this utility only for advanced users who are familiar with other products WKB.
Profiles configured in VKB Device Config program can be used in WIZZO.
In the near future we will prepare profiles that implement different functions for buttons and joystick axes.
It will be enough to select the appropriate profile and upload it to the controller Gladiator.
We started to develop the tool WIZZO PRO, which later will replaced VKB Device Config.

Q: Do I need calibrate the joystick in the Windows Control Panel?
Answer: Absolutely not!


Text in the balloon "For what?"

This joystick has its own calibration and produces ready-calibrated data to the operating system.

================================================================================================

BTW - Here a Gladiator profile (done with VKB Device Config software) that allow joystick 15 physical buttons - not counting the pinkie button used as "shift" - and HAT execute 50 functions.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2843296&postcount=13

I'm really interested in the new VKB line up. I'm waiting until later this year to see what the Gunfighter price will be, and depending on that I might keep using a short stick and therefore go for Gladiator Pro (if reviews are good enough for it) or Gunfighter and start using a full length stick in my modular VR based (HTC Vive) cockpit.

A kind of tradition in Russian joystick review is the use of... screwdriver for show their "guts":

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2579-gladiator-novyj-byudzhetnyj-dzhoj-ot-vkb/page-68#entry434372
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2579-gladiator-novyj-byudzhetnyj-dzhoj-ot-vkb/page-68#entry434385

User video



BTW - The metal trigger is not default item - is from a keychain as form of compensation gift for Russian pre-order, due delays in shipping.

More about Gladiator "soft" center:



"First, Gladiator was designed for maneuvering air combat (dogfights), and not for "Kosmosimov".

Gladiator Joytester2 from Korean review:



AIRROW Flight Stick for Europe market:



"Budget" version of VKB Gladiator, differences:

- Ordinary potentiometer in twist rudder axis, instead the contactless sensor used in Gladiator (In AIRROW X,Y axis contactless sensor is used).

- No input/support for T-Rudder or other VKB future controllers (throttle, button panels).

- Simplified firmware without support for load custom profiles.

Pre-order in Eurore seller - it seems that these "simplifications" have not reflected in the price...

https://www.exlibris.ch/fr/jeux/pc/accessoires/speedlink-airrow-flightstick-black/id/4027301432244

Pretty unfortunate for the European guys Still, there is definitely the option of ordering through US Amazon and if you're a Prime member, then shipping is very cheap, at least it is for those of us in AUS (we're used to having no local distributors for products!)

Gladiator PRO CAM "dance".



Cam "origens".

Another OEM version (of Gladiator) for European market, RavCore - Polish hardware distributor brand - Javelin.


Picture from Slaw (Slaw Pedals) "screwdriver" review posted in IL-2 forum(ru).

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_09_2016/post-12288-0-32948300-1475149126.jpg
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_09_2016/post-12288-0-58965200-1475148692.jpg
http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_09_2016/post-12288-0-41868000-1475149129.jpg

Product page: https://www.ravcore.com/produkty/javelin/
Manual and configuration softare available at end of this page.

Relatively to AIRROW version, Javelin configuration utility has two options more.

upload an image

- Can integrated T-Rudder or a MaRS based 3 axis rudder pedal in their base, though the RJ45 Rudder connector. For now is not know if this option has practical use.

- Has bootloader mode - what mean possibility to upgrade firmware, but notice that this upgrade need be provide by RavCore, VKB versions is not compatible (different VID/PID), so for now is not know if this option will have practical use, if the brand has interest in offer this - probably not, as will mean costs.

OEM Javelin version is offered at a lower value, around 67 dollars, what is more consistent with OEM version who lost contacless MaRS sensor in twist rudder, replaced for low cost potentiometer and have restrict firmware options.

OEM AIRROW have a less option in their config software, no bootloader mode, no option for integrate T-Rudder although maintain the connectors in base, and their price in Europe is practically the same of VKB Gladiator in Amazon.com.

Around simulations forums are suspicions that OEM versions came with different internals from Gladiator or are counterfeit copies.

OEM are produced by same factory who made Gladiator for VKB (and Cobra M5 for Defender), based on agreement of share development (explained in other topics there), so the products are identical, with same mechanical, e.g. the gimbal with damper grease - and electronics parts (MaRS), minus:

- Potentiometer in twist ruder instead contactless MaRS (X,Y axis use MaRS).
- Restrict firmware options, basically calibration/deadzone, no new buttons profile is possible.
- Pads under joystick base is in rubber, in Gladiator is silicone.
- OEM versions QC control is done by factory Chinese personal. For Gladiator done by VKB.

Notice that RavCore advertisement say "HALL sensor" technology, but the sensors are MaRS, more advanced. Happen that for Chinese MaRS is meaningless, and advertising as "HALL" they are taking advantage of Thrustmaster H.E.A.R.T. HALL "hype". :mrgreen:

If decide purchase is important take in mind, although OEM versions are the same joystick - with above exceptions - they are OEM products, not VKB product.
So is pointless go complain about OEM versions in VKB forum.

Comparing this OEM versions with the market, in similar price range/features the nearest options are Thrustmaster T.1600M and Defender Cobra M5 (low availability) - who use generic electronics in his V3 version - make this OEM versions, price/features/ergonomics and even look, better option... if that famous QC control had no "collateral effects".

looks like a nice stick to use for space sims as well - Elite, Evochron, Star Citizen...

Seems that finally VKB Warthog adapter will be available - in FSC Europe and China (Stratojet USA leave the "party").

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_12_2016/post-2534-0-78834400-1480831815.jpg

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25191-vkb-gunfighter-leakage/#entry416258
http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f...3ee42afe#p23904

New gimbal for Gunfighter

Any chance of purchase in the US with Stratojet out of the picture?

Do you know exactly what changes were made to this gimbals from the MKIII?

Obviously extended the set screws for springs to allow them to be doubled and the Warthog cam suggests they are using the same cams and hence basic design but I notice the gold round things opposite the cams/srprings and I'm wondering what those are. Damping mechanisms maybe?

Just a guess, just only see this picture.

The gimbal design is the same of Black Mamba/Gladiator PRO, but the axis bearings and their case is more sturdy.

A combination of extension (20cm) + 2 springs per axis + Warthog grip (~1kg) result in damage on bearing in one Black Mamba, so they re-draw the gimbal more strong.

The "gold" parts is really a mystery, but can be a kind of damper like in Gladiator (standard).

http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f...e1e68dfa#p23944

Thx Sukol, I'll definitely keep an eye on this. This is the first joystick in awhile I've been really interested in.

+1

Same for me, the GF Pro is probably the only stick I will consider to replace my Warthog

Is there any support for VKB products? My Gladiator POV switch has lost a direction, I cannot find any support page anywhere?

There: http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/index.php?sid=f92d6e8b23df0c1c9f43efe3220d5f51