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#4069059 - 01/25/15 06:31 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. *** [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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VMIalpha454 Offline
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Thought those were two separate thoughts due to the space between them. I get what you're saying now.


"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold."
1stLt. Clifton B. Cates, USMC
in Belleau Wood, 19 July 1918
#4069163 - 01/25/15 03:06 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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Sunchaser Offline
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Maybe the attitude stems from the fact that some Russian organization is backing them and they do not really need foreign sales?

Whatever their reasons they have made a mess of the IL2 name, too bad.

#4069350 - 01/26/15 01:24 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Extreme_One]  
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Originally Posted By: dburne
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
And no matter what any developer does with one of these products, forums like this will never be "pleasant". You can't satisfy everyone. The unlocks could disappear tomorrow and nothing would change in that regard.


And I would strongly disagree with that statement.
Take the BOS forums, prior to " unlockgate", and them kicking some strong community supporters to the curb, it was quite a pleasant forum for a long time before that.

Lot more negativity there now, way more, even with them doing their best to control any negativity by banning, hiding threads away, and heavy moderation. But I do agree it would need more than doing away with the powerups, needs a real single player campaign and customizable graphics options. We play on PC's, NOT Nintendos. There is a reason for that.
Currently the developers with their decisions and attitude toward the customers, are reaping what they sow.


I disagree... Granted before the unlocks it was certainly different.. and afterward was a total mess for a while.. There is nowhere near as much negativity there now as there was two months ago... Even with some folks from over here posting there again after a hiatus... it is nowhere near as negative.. and guess what.. not too many folks have been banned and not a lot of posts are hidden ... some are edited.. some are locked... but discussion flows and as long as that discussion remains civil that will continue to be the case. Most of the members who were "kicked to the curb" left under their own steam...

Originally Posted By: Le0ne
To silence what?
All I see is a bunch of people making a huge tragedy of a at worst annoying feature. Critique? what you guys performing here in thousands of pages is not critique, it is more like a endless moaning put on repeat.
The unlocks is a one in a lifetime event, if they was not there, you surely would find something else to make a drama about.
I do not call you haters , but this is getting pretty old and I personally would like something else on the menu , and there are actually more people flying that sim than cod and dcs n official open servers. I think that is a fact you guys cannot take


I don't know about the latter one way or the other.. but the former...


Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: dburne

Take the BOS forums, prior to " unlockgate"

Even before the unlocks seemed to become an issue for people there was for example a deliberate spam and hate campaign directed at the sim based upon the flight modeling. So this behavior is nothing new. When the product gets to the point that some very vocal minority realizes they won't get everything they want. They'll start attacking. It wouldn't matter what for. It's bound to happen.


Indeed.. the same thing happened on the CoD forums.. and some of the very folks over here were involved in that mess too..

Originally Posted By: dburne
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Even before the unlocks seemed to become an issue for people there was for example a deliberate spam and hate campaign directed at the sim based upon the flight modeling. So this behavior is nothing new. When the product gets to the point that some very vocal minority realizes they won't get everything they want. They'll start attacking. It wouldn't matter what for. It's bound to happen.


Sounds like perhaps you were not involved in the BOS forums as long as many of us were.

While yes there were certainly some FM discussions, some of which resulted in the developers actually making some changes, there was no hate campaign regarding it - and really still there is not.

I won't say there were not any haters there, I can certainly remember one or two that got banned, but more so passionate flight simmers that really care and are concerned about the direction of the developers and the future for BOS.


That is an oversimplification... I never liked the term "haters" or "fanbois" or "hate campaign" anyway.... Hate is IMO too strong a word to be bandied about on the likes of a d@mn PC game... Much of the drama towards BoS started from the very moment it was announced... and much of it was either preceded or followed by dialog referring to CoD and much of that angst was because many folks felt that BoS was somehow responsible for the development of CoD being yanked. There were indeed folks who also had nothing but negativity for anything BoS some also stemming from unresolved issues with RoF.

Originally Posted By: Extreme_One
There's little anyone can say to defend the unlocks, the pedestrian campaign, the lack of graphics customisation and the frankly hideous implementation of SSAO, but as soon as a BoS customer mentions any of these (on the official form) things s/he's branded a hater and derided for attacking the developer.

I keep hearing about how the forum is full of haters attacking the developers.

Yet all I see are impassioned customers trying to get the developers to get the game back on track.


The unlocks are indefensible.. the pedestrian campaign will become moot once the ME is released .. and the forum is certainly not full of haters.. not any more... Most of the haters have left, a few have been banned.. some impassioned customers also left.. some threatened to leave and return occasionally to plead their case.. which IMO is a good thing, but the forum is not "full of haters" .. There is actually much free flowing discussion going on and as long as no one goes over there intentionally trying to stir up BS it will remain that way.

I have no doubt that the team is listening regardless toi what they say or do not say... We shall surely see.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4069358 - 01/26/15 02:01 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Bearcat99]  
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lokitexas Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bearcat99


I have no doubt that the team is listening regardless toi what they say or do not say... We shall surely see.


Listening? No. Hearing? Sure.

You can tell they are hearing by the blow up name calling post Jason made the other day.

You can tell they are not listening by the decisions they made/make.

What funny is you keep posting things like its all rainbows and sunshine and in depth talks about the game at the official forums. Sorry, most people who had express critiques left due to moderation. The other ones there are walking on eggshells in order to not hurt the devs feelings by saying something "mean". Hard to see the negative when its locked and pushed down to the bottom.

The ME seems to be what people are hanging hope on. Lets hope it actually does what people are expecting. Sorry to be pessimistic but I have a feeling its not going to be the savoir.

#4069366 - 01/26/15 02:59 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: lokitexas]  
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Bearcat99 Offline
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Originally Posted By: lokitexas
Originally Posted By: Bearcat99


I have no doubt that the team is listening regardless to what they say or do not say... We shall surely see.


Listening? No. Hearing? Sure.

You can tell they are hearing by the blow up name calling post Jason made the other day.

You can tell they are not listening by the decisions they made/make.

What funny is you keep posting things like its all rainbows and sunshine and in depth talks about the game at the official forums. Sorry, most people who had express critiques left due to moderation. The other ones there are walking on eggshells in order to not hurt the devs feelings by saying something "mean". Hard to see the negative when its locked and pushed down to the bottom.

The ME seems to be what people are hanging hope on. Lets hope it actually does what people are expecting. Sorry to be pessimistic but I have a feeling its not going to be the savoir.


The operative phrase...
Originally Posted By: Bearcat99

I have no doubt that the team is listening regardless to what they say or do not say... We shall surely see.

... you may have whatever doubts, gripes, opinions or what have you... I don't speak for you. I speak for me, and as far as I am concerned.. I have no doubt.

I don't know what posts of mine you have been reading but I don't think I ever used the term rainbows and sunshine anywhere and most people who left due to moderation...? They left... most were not "kicked to the curb".. a few were.. and some were even allowed back but most left under their own volition and could return under that same volition should they chose to.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#4069412 - 01/26/15 09:06 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: lokitexas]  
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Revvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: lokitexas
Originally Posted By: Bearcat99


I have no doubt that the team is listening regardless toi what they say or do not say... We shall surely see.


Listening? No. Hearing? Sure.

You can tell they are hearing by the blow up name calling post Jason made the other day.

You can tell they are not listening by the decisions they made/make.

What funny is you keep posting things like its all rainbows and sunshine and in depth talks about the game at the official forums. Sorry, most people who had express critiques left due to moderation. The other ones there are walking on eggshells in order to not hurt the devs feelings by saying something "mean". Hard to see the negative when its locked and pushed down to the bottom.

The ME seems to be what people are hanging hope on. Lets hope it actually does what people are expecting. Sorry to be pessimistic but I have a feeling its not going to be the savoir.


I think you're right, if they were listening they would have done something about the unlocks, maybe not removed them completely as it seems central to their business plans but created some kind of tiered system where the cheap Russian version has them but those who paid a premium do not. If they were listening they would have addressed the woefully dull campaign, if they were listening they would have given us back the graphics options we had to start with, sure leave the presets in for those who are not sure about what to tinker with but at least give the majority who do a chance to set up their game to suit their PC specification. It was there to start with, just let us have it back, let us have the x16 time compression that was taken away when they found out people were using it to fast forward through the unlocks. They know very few like the unlocks so why make it even more painful for your customers to unlock something when its not like the campaign is an engaging, enjoyable experience for the many users who have expressed their disappointment.

I can understand Jason's anger if he has a team member he cares about falling seriously ill but he should not have used that kind of language directed at Bongodriver who did not actually say it was an excuse for the delay just that with what we know about 1C/777's underhand and devious community management he would hate to find out it was the case. In my opinion Bongodriver has been singled out for moderation and personal attack because of his criticism. I wonder how many out of the last 500 bans we heard about, the "last" 500 like me never returned because they felt they would not receive fair moderation? We've seen how moderators there single out people for moderation, its not the sunshine and rainbows we are led to believe but just a product of overbearing moderation and poor community management that has led to apathy and disgust in some cases.

#4069442 - 01/26/15 10:45 AM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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KraziKanuK Offline
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Revvin, you forgot to mention those the Moderators don't single out for moderation and should be.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4069558 - 01/26/15 03:49 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
The upside is that if you're going to keep people's medical information private (as you should), you can't then get upset at people who don't know the full details drawing inaccurate conclusions.

You either must tell everything that happened (which IMO is not in the best interests of the sick employee) or you must just not tell people "someone got sick" because you're opening the door to those comments.

If an entire part of the project is on the shoulders of just one employee, whose temporary or permanent loss will have a major effect on its timeline, maybe that was planning too fine? If only one guy could compile code and got in an accident and was gone for a month, would the release have been missed for a month while everyone stared at the walls waiting for him to come back and compile it? Redundancy isn't just for battle damage in a plane.

Sounds like the team is too small.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4069563 - 01/26/15 03:57 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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bongodriver Offline
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But nobody drew any conclusions or made any accusations, just to be clear.

#4069575 - 01/26/15 04:26 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Yes, it was an implication at worst, but properly was a call for clarity.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4069594 - 01/26/15 05:05 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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There's always a tone to these discussion about the unlocks that implies a "bait and switch" that the game was changed after it had been sold.
An important fact that's seems to be overlooked is that that the unlocks were announced in the developer diaries prior to the Early Access game being available for purchase.

DD #23 on 5 July 2013 describes the unlock and reward system.
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/750-developer-diary-part-xxiii/

Pre Order for the game was announced on 26 July 2013
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/802-...ram/#entry14670

So the news about the unlock feature was public before the game was sold.

Last edited by SharpeXB; 01/26/15 05:17 PM.

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#4069601 - 01/26/15 05:19 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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#4069604 - 01/26/15 05:25 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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bongodriver Offline
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Quote:
The key difference between our new project and the previous one is that all additional content can be obtained for free.


If you live in Russia, they forgot to mention that the rest of the world will pay a premium and still have to unlock it.

anyway the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death, it still remains that it is a widely despised feature.

#4069614 - 01/26/15 05:41 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: bongodriver]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
it still remains that it is a widely despised feature.

What's interesting reading that original announcement is that although some don't like the idea, there's actually many people responding there that they like it.


Velocity Micro PC | Asus Z97-A | i7-4790K @4.7GHz | Corsair H80iGT Liquid CPU Cooler | 32GB DDR3-1600MHz Memory | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC 11GB | 240gb Intel 520 Series SSD | 850 W Corsair PSU | Windows 10 Home | Samsung U28D590D UHD 28" Monitor | Bose Companion 5 Speakers | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
#4069616 - 01/26/15 05:44 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: bongodriver]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
The the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death

And this point isn't just that people were told "ages ago"
They were in fact told this before they purchased the product.


Velocity Micro PC | Asus Z97-A | i7-4790K @4.7GHz | Corsair H80iGT Liquid CPU Cooler | 32GB DDR3-1600MHz Memory | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC 11GB | 240gb Intel 520 Series SSD | 850 W Corsair PSU | Windows 10 Home | Samsung U28D590D UHD 28" Monitor | Bose Companion 5 Speakers | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
#4069618 - 01/26/15 05:49 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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bongodriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
The the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death

And this point isn't just that people were told "ages ago"
They were in fact told this before they purchased the product.


Yes...days before it became available for EA....I think everybody was distracted by the upcoming EA.

#4069629 - 01/26/15 06:03 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: bongodriver]  
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SharpeXB Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
The the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death

And this point isn't just that people were told "ages ago"
They were in fact told this before they purchased the product.


Yes...days before it became available for EA....I think everybody was distracted by the upcoming EA.

Exactly. It was a fresh announcement. Not something old from months before. It had actually just been sent to everyone's email that had a forum account.

Last edited by SharpeXB; 01/26/15 06:05 PM.

Velocity Micro PC | Asus Z97-A | i7-4790K @4.7GHz | Corsair H80iGT Liquid CPU Cooler | 32GB DDR3-1600MHz Memory | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC 11GB | 240gb Intel 520 Series SSD | 850 W Corsair PSU | Windows 10 Home | Samsung U28D590D UHD 28" Monitor | Bose Companion 5 Speakers | CH Fighterstick | Ch Pro Throttle | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR 5
#4069633 - 01/26/15 06:05 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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bongodriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
The the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death

And this point isn't just that people were told "ages ago"
They were in fact told this before they purchased the product.


Yes...days before it became available for EA....I think everybody was distracted by the upcoming EA.

Exactly. It was a fresh announcement. Not something old from months before.


So what? even I was one of the first people to say this on the BOS forums, it doesn't change the fact that it is unpopular.

#4069638 - 01/26/15 06:11 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: bongodriver]  
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dburne Offline
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Originally Posted By: bongodriver
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
The the whole 'we were told ages ago' has been beaten to death

And this point isn't just that people were told "ages ago"
They were in fact told this before they purchased the product.


Yes...days before it became available for EA....I think everybody was distracted by the upcoming EA.


Not to mention we were told a lot of things early on, that well didn't quite come to fruition... and no I am not going to be bothered to go back and re-read each and every DD to respond with " talking points".
And I guess all of those folks that bought into the game after July 5th 2013, were supposed to go back and read each and every DD prior to placing submit on the order button.

Bottom line is, 1CGS have lost a lot of customer base, because of their actions just prior and after the official release of the product. No, they did not lose the sales to these same people as they had already purchased ( and some were even " kicked to the curb"), which I found disgusting.

The proof on how this business model they seem to be so hell bent on maintaining being a success, will start to show with future offerings and how long it even lasts.

I say this as a concerned customer, I hope things turn around and they can regain much of the positive vibes and market share they originally had started with - heck while I don't play it any more, I have not totally given up and deleted it yet.

It matters not what was said or not said on July 5th 2013, what matters is the state of the game today, and going forward. This " game " quite frankly should have never been billed as the next iteration in the IL-2 series.


Don

EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
#4069642 - 01/26/15 06:13 PM Re: Unlocks will not be removed. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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dburne Offline
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
It had actually just been sent to everyone's email that had a forum account.


Just a point of clarification - this statement in itself is simply not true. I bought into EA the day after it was announced, became a forum member at the same time, and to date I have never, not one time , received an email from 1CGS.


Don

EVGA X-79 Dark MB|I-7 4820K@4.50 GHz|EVGA 1080 Ti FTW3|16GB Corsair Dominator PC2133 Ram|Oculus Rift CV1|Virpil T-50 stick, Warthog throttle|MFG Crosswind Pedals
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