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#4064988 - 01/17/15 04:04 AM The Camel  
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jmatt Offline
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jmatt  Offline
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The Camel is a ridiculous airplane to fly. It is almost always near stall, has lousy visibility and constantly tumbles into a spin, usually just as I'm lining up a shot of some kind (which is rare against a Dr1). Even with my IR I would usually have no idea where the enemy was if it wasn't for the little radar cheat you can toggle into the upper left.

The Dr1 climbs better, so the enemy is always hovering over head where I can't see him. And after circling around each other like 28 times, even when I finally have him out in front of me, when I pull the nose up for a shot... tumble.

What's the trick?

Yes, yes, I've seen that 28 minute documentary. And I can't find any threads about flying this outhouse. Is it that it provides a tactical advantage when getting the drop on the enemy before he can spot you? I'm just flying QC stuff and we always start nose to nose since I feel like it would be cheating to start from behind and above.

#4064992 - 01/17/15 04:21 AM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Rick_Rawlings Offline
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Here's one of my Camel missions:
Rother Camel

In general, I think the WOFF Camel is easier to fly than most of the other iterations out there. Check your auto mixture in the workshop. If it is off and you are not accounting for it, that can make your plane sluggish. Also, make sure nothing is conflicting with your throttle. I never use my stick throttle, but since I haven't disabled it, sometimes my throttle will surprisingly drop and I have to reset it. Other than that, try to keep your speed up, nose on the horizon and you will turn better to the right than left. Also, check out some of the other forum members videos for inspiration and tips!

Hope that helps!


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4064998 - 01/17/15 04:43 AM Re: The Camel [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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jmatt Offline
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jmatt  Offline
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Hmmm, blipping the engine. I read a bit about that yesterday but haven't tried it. Technically, what is it? Cutting the fuel without decreasing throttle?

Thanks for the help!

Last edited by jmatt; 01/17/15 04:43 AM.
#4065000 - 01/17/15 04:53 AM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Rick_Rawlings Offline
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I believe it just stops the cylinders from firing while depressed. I prefer it to inline throttle control, I seem to do much better.


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4065055 - 01/17/15 12:03 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

jmatt, the WOFF Camel, much like it's RL counterpart, if flown properly will beat any other plane in a turn fight hands down, including the DR1. However, you have to finesse it. Try flying it ham-fisted and it will slap you down in a heartbeat, but find its 'feel' and you will be unbeatable. The blip switch was the only way in RL to regulate the speed of the rotary, apart from minor RPM adjustments you could make with the mixture control. Rotary engines had no throttle per se and ran full open all the time, unless you cut ignition to all or some of the cylinders. On the Camel it was a simple on-off blip switch right on the JS that did this. So, in order to regulate your speed in a dog fight you have to constantly be playing with the blip switch. The Camel requires a lot of practice to get good with it because things like the blip switch operation have to become second nature to you. Many folks have tried the Camel for a few QCs and proclaimed it a POS, or a brick, or an outhouse, or any other number of derogatory terms, but nothing could be further from the truth. You simply need to commit the time to learn its intricacies and you will be an ace with it, which is exactly how it was for our RL Camel pilot counterparts.

Oh, and by the way, insult my beloved Camel again and it will be powdered wigs and large fish at dawn on the green.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4065067 - 01/17/15 12:24 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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loftyc Offline
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What I'm still wondering about is the turn rate - I don't notice any difference in that whether I go left or right, but shouldn't it be a lot faster to the right? I notice the nose going up or down, but I'm expecting more of a snap to the right than there is.

#4065076 - 01/17/15 12:58 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

loftyc, there is a difference, but not as much as there should be based on historic evidence. I imagine this is due to the difficulties in bringing gyroscopic precession into the CFS3 FM, though I am only guessing on that. In any event, once you have a feel for the WOFF Camel you can do a 180-degree turn to the right in just under three seconds and gain a bit of alt in the process, while going 180 degrees to the left take four seconds or slightly more.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4065089 - 01/17/15 01:23 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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vonBaur Offline
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And speaking of "feel", for me a force feedback sitck makes all the difference in the world. It will give you a tactile warning even before the on-screen ones, giving you time to correct. I flew without one for a while and stalled almost every plane I flew. Once I got a new one I've rarely had any problems in any plane.


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4065102 - 01/17/15 02:24 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Creaghorn Offline
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N�rnberg Frankonia
Yeah, FF is great for the feel. The winds, when aiming and shooting, landing, rolling, buffeting etc. Adds a lot of feel.

One thing you have to remember is that the joystick is made like a real flightstick in WOFF. With a real flightstick you wouldn't move it around from one edge to the other, but much more gentle and sensible with hardly ever reaching the edges, until necessary for manouvres or when hamfisted. With joysticks one tends to move the stick quickly to the edges. Want to go right, you often move the stick to the right until it can't go more right no more. Want to go up, you pull the stick until it reaches the edge and the stick can't go any further. Simply because people are used to do that with gamepads and joysticks, and because the stick is much shorter than a real flight stick, and therefore it happens easier.
Think of it as a real flightstick. Make gentle moves with only hitting the edge if necessary or if the AC allows it to keep control. Reaching the edges is always the extreme movement of a flightstick, so the behaviour is also the most extreme (falling into a spin etc.).

#4065159 - 01/17/15 05:13 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Polovski Offline
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If you use top rudder (left) in a right hand turn and get the bank angles right, and balance it there on a knife edge - you can wizz the Camel round very fast in WOFF. Practice it.

Also as Creaghorn says, you must not yank and bank in a WW1 craft, delicate and gently ease into more severe movements will bring you best control.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4065192 - 01/17/15 06:50 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Hauksbee Offline
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DeForest, Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: jmatt
The Camel is a ridiculous airplane to fly. It is almost always near stall, has lousy visibility and constantly tumbles into a spin...

And you have to remember that in real life the Camel killed nearly 50% of its WWI student pilots. Just getting to a front-line squadron was a real chore. So it's not just you who finds the Camel difficult.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
#4065222 - 01/17/15 07:44 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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SkyHigh Offline
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Ireland
There are cheap "FF" joysticks available. I use a Speedlink Black Widow, which comes with a separate stick and throttle. It isn't true force feedback, rather a vibration, but it gives that little bit of advance warning when you're near the edge. You can't be as bad a pilot as me, so something like this should be even more beneficial for you.

#4065227 - 01/17/15 07:56 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Polovski Offline
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Hotshot

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BTW Skyhigh slightly off topic but when I installed a Blackwidow the FF never worked, what drivers do you use?


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4065265 - 01/17/15 09:50 PM Re: The Camel [Re: Polovski]  
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SkyHigh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polovski
BTW Skyhigh slightly off topic but when I installed a Blackwidow the FF never worked, what drivers do you use?



Polovski, I use the 2008 version sl-6640 drivers. There are others, but they don't work. Strangely, FF wouldn't work properly for me until about patch 1.14 and caused greatly reduced frame-rates, but since then and into the expansion it has worked fine. The drivers I mention are available at this site:

http://www.speedlink.com/?p=2&cat=313&pid=1533&

Get back to me if there are any hitches.

#4065352 - 01/18/15 03:26 AM Re: The Camel [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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jmatt Offline
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jmatt  Offline
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Originally Posted By: RAF_Louvert
However, you have to finesse it. ...The blip switch was the only way in RL to regulate the speed of the rotary, apart from minor RPM adjustments you could make with the mixture control. Rotary engines had no throttle per se and ran full open all the time, unless you cut ignition to all or some of the cylinders. On the Camel it was a simple on-off blip switch right on the JS that did this. So, in order to regulate your speed in a dog fight you have to constantly be playing with the blip switch.


Of course it's me and not the plane. Just venting a bit.

I have been babying it in turns and working the rudder when I bank. But I have not been able to regulate the throttle and now I know why. Thanks.

Let's see how it goes tonight...

Theeeere it is. Switched to my Force Feedback and started blipping the engine. Like night and day. Thanks everyone.

Last edited by jmatt; 01/18/15 05:10 AM.
#4065455 - 01/18/15 12:34 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

No worries jmatt, I was only giving you a bit of a wind up. smile2 The Camel, once you are familiar with it, may well become your favorite Allied kite to fly as it has so much agility, climbs like a scalded monkey, carries two guns, and has several tricks in its bag that are hard for an enemy to beat.

For instance, here's one to try: Pull up fairly hard while giving about half rudder to port, (left), and allow her to just begin to fall into a spin. As soon as she starts, center the controls and, if you've done it all with the proper timing, she will do half a revolution as she settles back into level flight going the same direction as you started but with about a hundred feet of additional altitude. Now imagine you've just done that trick with an enemy scout close on your six trying to get a bead on you. They will likely fly right under you at which point you will come out above and behind them, or they will try to follow your maneuver and overfly you as you fall out of what they thought was going to be a half-loop or an Immelmann. Either way you will have the advantage at that point.

You can do a similar trick to starboard, (right), when you have an enemy on your tail. With that one you go into your starboard turn and as you do so you pull back on the stick about two-thirds or so and give a strong amount of starboard rudder. If you again have your timing spot-on, you will snap into a clockwise spin with your nose pointed downwards. As quickly as possible center your rudder and push forward on the stick and you will snap out of the spin, and with more speed than you entered it. Immediately pull back on the stick with authority and you will quite likely go zooming right up over your would-be attacker.


Pol wrote:
Quote:
If you use top rudder (left) in a right hand turn and get the bank angles right, and balance it there on a knife edge - you can wizz the Camel round very fast in WOFF. Practice it.

Yes indeed, that does work Pol. However, the issue I have with that maneuver in combat is that is can leave you hanging as a rather large, nearly stationary target as you balance on the edge. Also, get it wrong and you can fall into that nasty, unrecoverable spin the Camel is infamous for.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4065463 - 01/18/15 01:12 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Polovski Offline
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Great thank you SkyHigh.

Yeah Lou for sure you can only do it when it's to your advantage. Great tips for the other manoeuvres. I think it's a rewarding aircraft for those that practice, and it's tricky and deadly hence I like it smile.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4065478 - 01/18/15 01:55 PM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

No contest, the Camel is my most favorite WWI mount. It's like dancing with a sophisticated lady: treat her properly and with respect and she'll let you do nearly anything; handle her roughly and she'll slap you down PDQ.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4065893 - 01/19/15 03:29 AM Re: The Camel [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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jmatt Offline
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Originally Posted By: RAF_Louvert
....climbs like a scalded monkey


That, I can't seem to find. Those Dr1s are always over head. I see a key binding for extending flaps, how do I retract them?

#4065911 - 01/19/15 04:32 AM Re: The Camel [Re: jmatt]  
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Rick_Rawlings Offline
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There's no flaps on the Camel. To my knowledge, very few WWI birds had flaps or flap like structures and I'm not sure if they are even modeled... It's mostly just a legacy key from CFS3, I think...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
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