Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4062804 - 01/12/15 11:14 AM How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 161
OlafM Offline
Member
OlafM  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 161
Read the following article:

How to Be Grateful For What You Have

The author talks about camera equipment, but it made me think immediately of the expectations we have for our flight sims, especially DCS. cool

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4063222 - 01/13/15 03:02 AM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
toonces Offline
Member
toonces  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
Honolulu, Hawaii
That was a pretty good article, and I can see how one could apply it to flight sims.

While every flight sim (including DCS) has shortcomings, it is easy to miss the bigger picture that by most standards DCS is an outstanding piece of software. We get conditioned in such a manner that we begin to take things for granted that sims like DCS offer us.

Great analogy for simming...worth reading if you haven't taken the opportunity.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#4063251 - 01/13/15 04:24 AM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
Well, that's not really the same thing at all. This isn't about not getting better things, it's more about the quality of what's available. Compared to other sims, DCS certainly does very well in some aspects, but what they're messing up the most is simply the basics.

E.g. I don't see any fun in WW2 dogfights anymore. Sure, maybe the FM is the best in the world, but basics such as the FM used by the AI, the low quality DM (which is even lower quality when the AI gets it), the devs continuously neglecting to overhaul the virtual eyesight, the AI trying to fly their props like they're in F-16s (ever wondered why the AI will climb to get away, despite always stalling halfway through the loop? Try dogfighting an AI F-16 and you'll see them actually pulling of the maneuver, because modern planes are the only ones they're actually proficient in flying ATM).

These things are basics, and the WW2 planes illustrate it the best since they're the ones worst affected by it. Pete's sake, the AI even calls out radar locks and such in the WW2 planes. The issues I've listed are obvious quality flaws; The message I took home from that article isn't that a customer should ignore quality issues despite having bought what is labeled as the very best on the market.

#4063257 - 01/13/15 04:37 AM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,971
EricJ Offline
Me, just me.
EricJ  Offline
Me, just me.
Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,971
Baltimore, MD
Personally I enjoy DCS and the series since Flanker 1.0, and the only other flight sim to top it was DID's EF2000 V2.04 (last version, still was great though) and even SF2 has its moments when dealing as far as the game itself.


|My Books | Home Page | http://562.combatace.com/ |
- 'Nearly everyone felt the need to express their views on all wars to me, starting with mine. I found myself thinking, “I ate the crap sandwich, you didn’t, so please don’t tell me how it tastes.”' - CPT Cole, US Army
- "...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers
#4063785 - 01/14/15 04:01 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: scrim]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
NineLine Offline
ED Community Manager
NineLine  Offline
ED Community Manager
Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: scrim
Well, that's not really the same thing at all. This isn't about not getting better things, it's more about the quality of what's available. Compared to other sims, DCS certainly does very well in some aspects, but what they're messing up the most is simply the basics.

E.g. I don't see any fun in WW2 dogfights anymore. Sure, maybe the FM is the best in the world, but basics such as the FM used by the AI, the low quality DM (which is even lower quality when the AI gets it), the devs continuously neglecting to overhaul the virtual eyesight, the AI trying to fly their props like they're in F-16s (ever wondered why the AI will climb to get away, despite always stalling halfway through the loop? Try dogfighting an AI F-16 and you'll see them actually pulling of the maneuver, because modern planes are the only ones they're actually proficient in flying ATM).

These things are basics, and the WW2 planes illustrate it the best since they're the ones worst affected by it. Pete's sake, the AI even calls out radar locks and such in the WW2 planes. The issues I've listed are obvious quality flaws; The message I took home from that article isn't that a customer should ignore quality issues despite having bought what is labeled as the very best on the market.


What you always forget when you bring this stuff up over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is that we don't have a WWII environment yet, its in work. So no we dont have proper 1944 communication, navigation, etc etc... I would expect much of that to come with Normandy. The AI and Damage is a much larger issue and both are well aware to the devs, but they are in the middle of a few other things right now, 2.0 goes a long way for clearing a path to other improvements that might not have been possible, or at least more difficult before... Its back to the foundation, Don't rebuild the house the go back and tear it down to rebuild the foundation and have to rebuild the house again.

#4063803 - 01/14/15 04:36 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: NineLine]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted By: SiThSpAwN

What you always forget when you bring this stuff up over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over is that we don't have a WWII environment yet, its in work. So no we dont have proper 1944 communication, navigation, etc etc... I would expect much of that to come with Normandy. The AI and Damage is a much larger issue and both are well aware to the devs, but they are in the middle of a few other things right now, 2.0 goes a long way for clearing a path to other improvements that might not have been possible, or at least more difficult before... Its back to the foundation, Don't rebuild the house the go back and tear it down to rebuild the foundation and have to rebuild the house again.


I mentioned this in another thread but since you seem to be part of the ED team, I want post this which is somehow related to what Scrim mentioned about ED "failing on the basics" and also related to WWII and followed by a couple of questions:
- According to your (ED) WWII plan, DCS World (WWII world) will come with a Normandy map, with the following flyable aircraft: P-51D, Spitfire Mk.IX, P-47 (don't remember which version) for the Allied side and the FW-190D, BF-109K and Me-262 for the Axis side. So my questions are:
Are you aware that all flyable Axis aircraft (FW-190D, BF-109K and Me-262) don't historically and therefore realistically fit on the Normandy map? I hope you are aware of this.
If you are aware of this (which again, I hope) what are you plans to solve this "issue"?

If I'm allowed, I want to give you a suggestion which I gave in an another thread:
- Instead of making a Normandy map, make a Bulge map instead since in this map all the flyable aircraft would perfectly fit in terms of historical realism.

#4063809 - 01/14/15 04:45 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
Hey, who am I to say WW2 lingo, navigation, etc. won't come with the Normandy map? I mean, I didn't even mention it...

Please don't make excuses for what we've got now. The P-51D has been out how long now, 3 years? It demonstrated every. Single. One. Of the issues I mentioned. Everything I mentioned has been quite easy to see for years, it's nothing new. The reason I mentioned the WW2 planes is that as I stated that they display the issues the most, so if anyone isn't sure they can take a look and see for themselves. That being said, later planes also display many of the issues, e.g. the MiG-15 will also attempt loops it has nowhere near enough power for as an escape, which is weird considering the -15s well known reputation to enter rather dangerous spins with no warning when it stalled. It's rather obvious that no matter what plane the AI flies, they still resort to the same methods instead of trying to utilize the strengths of the particular plane they're in. -190s will happily try scissors with the Mustang, etc.

As you say, the AI and DM are well known to be lacking, but that's hardly new either. In fact, it's been known for years. And what would EDGE to do fix it? Last time I checked, it was a graphics engine?

Last edited by scrim; 01/14/15 04:47 PM.
#4063811 - 01/14/15 04:49 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
NineLine Offline
ED Community Manager
NineLine  Offline
ED Community Manager
Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: ricnunes


I mentioned this in another thread but since you seem to be part of the ED team, I want post this which is somehow related to what Scrim mentioned about ED "failing on the basics" and also related to WWII and followed by a couple of questions:
- According to your (ED) WWII plan, DCS World (WWII world) will come with a Normandy map, with the following flyable aircraft: P-51D, Spitfire Mk.IX, P-47 (don't remember which version) for the Allied side and the FW-190D, BF-109K and Me-262 for the Axis side. So my questions are:
Are you aware that all flyable Axis aircraft (FW-190D, BF-109K and Me-262) don't historically and therefore realistically fit on the Normandy map? I hope you are aware of this.
If you are aware of this (which again, I hope) what are you plans to solve this "issue"?

If I'm allowed, I want to give you a suggestion which I gave in an another thread:
- Instead of making a Normandy map, make a Bulge map instead since in this map all the flyable aircraft would perfectly fit in terms of historical realism.


I agree with what you are saying, the Normandy map was a bit of a head scratcher to me, I think ED has their hands tied somewhat with what RRG initiated and invested in (although I don't know insider details too much). So I think we are getting Normandy like it or not, my hope is to see it expanded into a much larger map as they go along, more of Europe and more locations more historically appropriate for these aircraft.

So initially, historically accurate missions will be tough if not impossible to do, I know that the 1944 feel, units and such should at least make the WWII stuff more enjoyable...

#4063812 - 01/14/15 04:50 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: scrim]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
NineLine Offline
ED Community Manager
NineLine  Offline
ED Community Manager
Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: scrim
Hey, who am I to say WW2 lingo, navigation, etc. won't come with the Normandy map? I mean, I didn't even mention it...

Please don't make excuses for what we've got now. The P-51D has been out how long now, 3 years? It demonstrated every. Single. One. Of the issues I mentioned. Everything I mentioned has been quite easy to see for years, it's nothing new. The reason I mentioned the WW2 planes is that as I stated that they display the issues the most, so if anyone isn't sure they can take a look and see for themselves. That being said, later planes also display many of the issues, e.g. the MiG-15 will also attempt loops it has nowhere near enough power for as an escape, which is weird considering the -15s well known reputation to enter rather dangerous spins with no warning when it stalled. It's rather obvious that no matter what plane the AI flies, they still resort to the same methods instead of trying to utilize the strengths of the particular plane they're in. -190s will happily try scissors with the Mustang, etc.

As you say, the AI and DM are well known to be lacking, but that's hardly new either. In fact, it's been known for years. And what would EDGE to do fix it? Last time I checked, it was a graphics engine?


There is more to 2.0 than just EDGE.

#4063852 - 01/14/15 06:45 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
As much as I want an overhaul of the early 00's era graphics for DCS, I'd prefer an AI overhaul first along with a dynamic campaign overhaul and the ability for the random mission generator to make MP missions you could just click on to fly. Of all of those, I think the 3rd is probably the easiest to do, but like the other 2 I don't think any real time has been invested into doing it, so whatever.

I also believe new maps are needed, and since ED made the decision years ago not to do anymore before EDGE, we've been stuck in a holding pattern that really needs to end. Since this is being addressed with EDGE, it's not as pressing of a "hey, you guys want to think about this??" issue.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4063853 - 01/14/15 06:49 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
SkateZilla  Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
Edge is just the Edge of the list of changes.


HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4063866 - 01/14/15 07:02 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: SkateZilla]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
NineLine Offline
ED Community Manager
NineLine  Offline
ED Community Manager
Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 490
BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Edge is just the Edge of the list of changes.



#4063872 - 01/14/15 07:07 PM Re: How to workaround the shortcomings of DCS [Re: OlafM]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 7,033
komemiute Offline
Hell Drummer
komemiute  Offline
Hell Drummer
Hotshot

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 7,033
rofl


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron

Moderated by  Force10, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Actors portraying US Presidents
by PanzerMeyer. 04/19/24 12:19 PM
Dickey Betts was 80
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/19/24 01:11 AM
Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
Grumman Wildcat unique landing gear
by Coot. 04/17/24 03:54 PM
Peter Higgs was 94
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/17/24 12:28 AM
Whitey Herzog was 92
by F4UDash4. 04/16/24 04:41 PM
Anyone can tell me what this is?
by NoFlyBoy. 04/16/24 04:10 PM
10 Years ago MV Sewol
by wormfood. 04/15/24 08:25 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0