Well one doesn't need one here, either, but without one all sorts of "bra" requirements of lifting and separating the weapon from the ammo and access to the passengers comes into effect.

Like having the ammo in the car and the pistol in the trunk. Twenty bucks a year for a CCW permit is easier than trying to meet the non-CCW transportation laws.

In Texas you don't have to carry a handgun in trunk even if you're not going to a range .... the Motorist Protection Act allows citizens to carry a firearm in their car if it is out of sight (no CCL needed )and there is also a section which allows a gun owner to transport a firearm from home to your car

The value of self defense capabilities isn't measured in the cost of acquiring or maintaining them, but rather in the cost of what can be lost due to an attack in their absence.

Most people don't view an unused fire extinguisher as a "waste of money". People who acquire insurance above and beyond any required minimum don't view it as a "waste of money". There is value in the ability to respond, and the peace of mind that can bring.



You're talking out of your hat here, Haggart. It may seem intuitively obvious or reasonable to you, but it isn't how it works out in the real world.

First off, as Murphy has already pointed out, firing does not equal hitting.

Second, defensive use of firearms doesn't necessarily involve a shot being fired at all. The mere presence of a firearm in the hands of a determined defender frequently stops the attack with no shot being fired.

The best research done on the subject has been by criminologist Gary Kleck, Ph.D
http://rense.com/general76/univ.htm

Referring to percentages of defensive gun uses:


86% of the time, the gun being present without actually being fired, did the trick.

It's better to have one and not need it, than to need it and not have one.



Lawful self defense in most jurisdictions includes defending innocent lives, whether they are family or not. As for the rest of that statement... you draw your weapon in an attempt to save your life when it is in danger. If you are successful in your endeavor via actually shooting an assailant, your chances of being sued in civil court are extremely high (but most rational people consider that a better outcome than being killed or maimed by the assailent instead.) Fortunately, some states, such as Florida, are acting to stop such suits when they are unwarranted (ie. justifiable self-defense actions).



Well, you've faced danger from other sources instead:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3873415/Re:_Gun_ownership_and_violence#Post3873415

so your experience would best be classified as atypical. One might even theorize that PTSD is potentially clouding your judgement in this subject matter.



It wasn't all that long ago:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3778221/The_Armed_Citizen_Project_-_&a#Post3778221

that you pointed out "Well, I live about 30-40 min from downtown Houston area and down there, are some bad neighborhoods..."

So you know that you are within striking distance of dangerous people. Hopefully things stay safe in your neighborhood. Concealed Carry Permits however, are for being prepared for trouble even when you're not home in your safe neighborhood with your DHS agent neighbors. It's your choice, and that's fine for you, but it's pretty poor, uninformed advice to be doling out to other people.

Actually, in the O.P. for this thread, he stated:
"My goal is to be able to conceal carry, so I don't want one of the giant pistols I saw behind the case today."

You know, has anyone said some smallish/medium frame .380? If its a gun for ccw as insurance thats all you need. Its small and light. Fit in a pocket. No silly short barrel blasting a full power service pistol round. Does SIG still make the P230? Always got a warm fuzzy around that thing. Hell, even a dang Bersa .380 would do it. At least with a Bersa you will not cry as its finish gets mangled with daily carry.


And the only 2 reasons I would get a CCW is heading out in the boonies and not wanting to make a seen. That and the firearms transport issue. Heading to the range hauling a bunch of center fire rifles all unloaded just feels wrong and silly. How to you maintain the security of a much of boom sticks with out a loaded boom stick?

Makarov FTW.

HMMM what a cold war surplus Makarov. Although the 9x18mm round is certainly better than 9x17mm (.380).

Hell, just go old school James Bond and Walther PPK.

I wouldn't recommend a .380ACP for a defensive handgun. The last statistics I saw, it was a very poor performer with commonly available ammunition types. Unless recent improvements in hollow points have changed things for the .380, you don't get a combination of sufficient penetration combined with reliable expansion. Exotic ammo, such as Glaser Safety Slugs might work well enough, if the gun will still reliably cycle them. I haven't looked to see what they charge for those now.

The O.P. already stated he was narrowing down between guns in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. Those are all viable choices with proper ammo selection.

I never considered myself a real fan of modern polymer pistols but with guns like the XDs, S&W Shield and Glock 26 on the market I don't see the need to go with a .380. The XDs is the only one of these I've actually shot. The 9mm is not uncomfortable to shoot and is even surprisingly controllable. The .45 is a bit of a handful but it isn't uncontrollable ether. I can tell you that the 9mm XDs is easier to shoot than the Sig p238 which is a .380. I can't imagine the Shield or the Glock 26 are bad ether but I personally have no experience with them.

And this is how you end up with a safe full of guns...

Because in the end nothing ever does everything well. And an experienced shooter is not going to have much issues using compact 9mm. A new one vary well might. And depends how small you go. But even things like glock 19's are sort of big to carry around on a nice summer day. I have no idea what its like to fire a full blown +p 9mm out of some puny 3 inch or under barrel, but I really don't want to either. Just cost of such rounds and knowing its a compromise solution. Now hot 9mm out of full sized pistols is no issue at all. But there is a reason pocket pistols until the last few years where all coming in .32 and .380 since 1900. If the firearm is not pleasant, ie FUN to shoot you will not shoot it. Then where are you at?

The firearms industry is in yet another full blown fad mode. CCW has gotten pretty big. So guys want to pack slightly more compact service pistols. After a while you may find that wearing coats and baggy clothes looks stupid in the middle of the summer. So now you want something smaller. And behold, a zillion full size ultra compact pistols are hitting the market. All featuring your fav full sized round. But how many people will shoot these things regularly? After everyone gets done getting these little things we will probably see a decline of such. I am talking the stupid small 9, 40's, and 45's here. And we are seeming way more plastic .380's hitting the market. Have to go full circle I guess. Guys like John Browning making pocket pistols back in 1902 and figuring out what works way back then. These sorts of pistols are really insurance policies. But the key thing is it needs to be enjoyable to use. Or it will not get used and then you are more liability with a gun. We have enough of that out there. IMO, your out there packing heat legally and responsibly you have a duty to be a master of your arm. It is not something to be taken lightly.

So in short, telling a new shooter to pick up an ultra compact 9,40, 45 for concealed carry is setting them up for failure. Hell, I don't even want to mess around with those things. But then again, I am more comfortable with some proven sort of design that just has worked for 1/2 a century or more. No surprises.

CyBerkut you completely missed my point - no one is saying that a handgun would not deter an attacker or potentially stop a criminal and yes there are areas in and around large cities where you definitely would want to be armed. Even in my car I have before taken a pistol with me on vacation. But most people in the U.S. don't need concealed carry nor will they ever need concealed carry. My experience is not atypical ..... the person who has been robbed at gunpoint is atypical unless you're talking about a high crime area where the number of assaults go up dramatically.

Now people can certainly hang out in parts of a city late at night or stop at places where it
would be prudent to be armed but if they want to increase their chances of an encounter where they would need a firearm then that's their choice.

Things are not as stable as they once were, all it could take at this point is a market crash or some other kind of destabilizing event for there to be a need for daily CCW even in a decent area.

Some of these posts make me think that I maybe should look at getting a gun.

LOL, good one.

I missed that part....I guess it was too far from...



...for it to compute.

LOL, wait until she gets the mail and sees a letter from the Sherriff, opens it, and finds a Concealed Weapons Permit for her husband.

She's going to catch on that he's cheating on her...with a pistol.

Having very little gun experience. I kept it VERY simple with my first hand gun choice. I got a Ruger LCR .357. I have become comfortable shooting it (not with the .357 though, way too much recoil for me). I know it has only 5 rounds, but I am hoping I never need even one.

In fairness to the O.P., that issue was discussed further on in the thread, and he has indicated that he will find a way to deal with her openly on the subject before acquiring a handgun.

I don't envy him the task, but it really is necessary. Along with the breach of trust aspect, that both you and I have pointed to, there is the safety aspect that was also highlighted by another poster.

Wish him the best.

I didn't miss your point. I just consider it completely misguided, and terrible advice to be dispensing. By your measure of worth, the only way to truly know if carrying concealed was worth it is after the fact. Hint: If you go without carrying a concealed handgun and then find yourself in need of a firearm despite the prediction otherwise... you are well and truly hosed. Carrying a handgun concealed is for *unexpected* threats. It is emergency rescue equipment.

When you have predictable threats you either:

1. Don't go there. (The preferable choice) Maybe even call the law enforcement folks if the threat could be expected to be caught in the act of violating the law.

Or

2. Bring something with a lot more stopping power than a handgun... such as a rifle or shotgun... preferably with a lot of capable friends who are equipped likewise.

Haggart, do you consider an unexpended fire extinguisher to be "a waste of money"?

By the way, the "atypical experience" I was referring to was:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3873415/Re:_Gun_ownership_and_violence#Post3873415



I'm pretty confident most of us have not had experiences similar to those. I could see where that might color your thinking somewhat on firearms related issues.

If you want to talk about fire extinguishers we can. But gun's have nothing to do with fire extinguishers.

In addition, bringing up the carelessness and inexperience of a 16 teenager is not going to advance whatever point you're trying to make.

My experience of not having to ever defend myself using a firearm is not atypical and most people DO NOT NEED to walk around with guns concealed under their clothing. That is simply a fact. Now if you're talking about a high crime area or Syria then I would agree with you ...otherwise, no.

Most of the friends and people are have ever known in my lifetime have not gone around with a gun hidden under their clothes and none of my friends or relatives (or in-laws) have ever needed to defend themselves with a gun and they don't go around with concealed handguns.

That is where you are wrong. Keeping a fire extinguisher handy for an unexpected emergency, and keeping a handgun handy for an unexpected emergency are very much similar things. Concealed Carry Permits allow citizens to keep a handgun handy in more places, as they are not limited to your home, vehicle or place of business. They have enabled citizens to be armed and able to save innocent lives in situations where they did not expect ahead of time to be facing grave bodily injury or death. (Yes, even in nice neighborhoods...) Aside from actuaries or lawyers, most people do not attempt to assign a dollar value to such things. The innocent lives saved are certainly much more valuable than what states charge for concealed carry permits.



People can decide that for themselves.