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#4055858 - 12/25/14 05:44 AM Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite.  
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#4056369 - 12/27/14 01:08 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Was 8 years old and heard all about it. Even remember watching this on TV.


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#4056727 - 12/28/14 03:06 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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I was 17 and considered going, but spent the week at Scout camp, instead.


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#4056733 - 12/28/14 03:26 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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LOL, I remember my dad wailing about "Hippies, hippies, G-D HIPPIES!" whenever someone mentioned Woodstock or some other "counter culture" topic.

Then again, he was a soldier, and soldiers weren't throwing poo onto hippies. It was the other way around.

Not a lot I agree with my Dad about, but he was dead on the money about hippies and the whole "counter culture" crap of the '60's and early '70's. Dope smoking commies looking for a handout and needing a bath....still haven't figured out what the allure was over it.

Last edited by Dart; 12/28/14 03:28 AM.

The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4056739 - 12/28/14 03:52 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Well Dart, a lot of people were drafted and went to Vietnam and became hippies or part of the counter-culture movement: that's often just neglected by the squares. That doesn't fit into the box, I guess.

There was a documentary about a guy who just got married and was a having a kid when he got drafted, wanting nothing to do with the war especially because he was having a kid, but he went, came home on leave and went to Woodstock. As far as the dope smoking goes, it was pretty widely used by a lot of troops in Vietnam, that much is well known. You can't have it both ways- if troops get stoned, and a lot did, then the troops are dirty commies, too.

That's why the Oliver Stone film Platoon was particularly focused on, that division. Notice on the one hand the in crowd which smoked dope and listened to Motown in the bunker, and on the other, the guys listening to Merle Haggard getting drunk. Now those guys looked down on the dope heads, but they were stumbling around slurring when they talked while they did it. That in a nutshell explains that whole division right there, when Sergeant Barnes can't even stand up with bottle of Jack in his hand has some words for the other squad for their pot smoking. Like the Dreyfus Affair in Europe, you can see who was one which side of the fight that was all about. The 'old' people versus the 'new' people. That's always the way it's been.


#4056743 - 12/28/14 04:17 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted By: Dart
....still haven't figured out what the allure was over it.




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#4056766 - 12/28/14 06:17 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Ah. Oliver Stone explained it all in a movie. Oliver Stone. In a movie.

Well, I guess my dad's experiences during four tours in Vietnam and how he related them and how there was actually very little drug use in his units (probably because as MP's - first tour - and Combat Engineers - other three - being stoned was really hazardous) were all bull crap.

Because, you know, Oliver Stone. And a movie he made..

Oliver. Stone.

Movie.

Because you know, he also proved JFK was killed by 9/11 on the Moon. In a movie. Let's just read this aloud one more time: Oliver Stone. Movie. Historical Facts. Oliver Stone. Movie.

Perhaps we can get some corroboration from another vaunted documentarian, Micheal Moore. They're of equal validity in how they handle facts.

And one didn't have to be a hippy to get tail. Goodness knows my totally non-hippy father was swimming in it.

One doesn't have to be a Commie to smoke pot. But hippies were Commies, and they smoked a helluvalot of dope.

Last edited by Dart; 12/28/14 06:25 AM.

The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4056770 - 12/28/14 07:06 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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My dad as well has a deep hate of hippies and it's not because of the pot. Dad enlisted in the USAF in '72 because he heard that his numbers were about to be called. Kinda pissed off when the stopped the draft before his numbers. Almost went to Nam but his orders were changed at the last minute. He was on the plane to go when he was asked to deplane because of the change. He hadn't been to 'Nam and he was still spit on and called baby killer among other such lovely names.


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#4056775 - 12/28/14 09:06 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Interesting that the nastiness of the Great Cultural Rift
in the US still persists, just like the lingering Civil War
issues. Way to drive this to PWEC. A lot of young people
were objecting to the solidifying american cultural meme
that your country makes decisions on who to go and kill,
then drafts adolescents to do the dirty work; they come
home and for the rest of their lives are deeply emotionally
invested in needing to believe that all the grim acts they
were involved in were justified, that they were on the side
of good. This works fantastically well for the maintenance
of the political position that instituted this system, and
a lot of what went on in the sixties was an attempt to
dismantle this system. It had an effect, but on an individual
level, and the Rift remains between those who rejected the
system and those who still embrace it; but fortunately now
there are a lot of people who have left all that stuff to
history, just like the confederacy.

#4056786 - 12/28/14 10:34 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Mechanus Offline
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You know that Oliver Stone was a combat vet in Vietnam, right? I just assumed that people knew that when I mentioned it. I thought that was fairly common knowledge. Oliver Stone like any director does use artistic license (in fact in a deleted scene, there is point in the film where Sergeant Elias is 'resurrected', returns, but no one recognizes him- which is a Biblical allegory to Jesus, the same way he died in a crucifix pose- of course that is not meant to be taken literally). But other scenes are obvious cultural references to the split in American attitudes, concerning the war and society at the time, like in the way the Dreyfus Affair in Europe split society between the 'old' and the 'new.' The clash between generations.


The US government's own statistics were at least 2 out of 10 service personnel in Vietnam used marijuana occasionally or more frequently. This isn't a lie if you don't want to take Stone's word for it (I don't even know what it would require to deny it, it's like willful covering of the eyes, trying to remain innocent of the facts):



It is a good indication of the way society was split then. Even now, as people's attitudes have began to change about pot (because before there were hippies to blame when it was first criminalized in the early 20th Century, it was a drug for blacks and Mexicans, there were flat out racist statements made that no one can get away with today), you still see some people left from the past hanging on to this incorrect narrative about pot. Way living in the past, still use the same language that's way out of date and outmoded. And it lost the war on pot. It's just too simplistic and doesn't really pay attention to any facts. You have more younger people today who weren't programmed like they were before with the War on Drugs, that includes vets and prior service people. It's just amazing that there are people still that entrenched against it- it's like a way of life, but it's a relic that may not last but in a very regional base. Could be a minority view within a couple years.


#4056890 - 12/28/14 07:16 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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My city is still culturally stuck in that era to a large extent, it's creepy as all heck when you realize that so many folks are borderline deluded into believing they're living 45 or 50 years ago.

#4056907 - 12/28/14 07:53 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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The main reason pot has become more acceptable is because the pot smokers from woodstock are now running things.

#4056911 - 12/28/14 08:11 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
The main reason pot has become more acceptable is because the pot smokers from woodstock are now running things.


I think even more the reason is pot has been around long enough to prove it isn't the demon
early critics made it out to be. But,like alcohol pot can be abused.

#4056925 - 12/28/14 09:26 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Mechanus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
The main reason pot has become more acceptable is because the pot smokers from woodstock are now running things.


Well, that would be ironic- because pot is supposed to prostrate the generations and make them into criminals and slaves and so forth. So how can it be according to the rhetoric that both are true, that these wasted generations are now in charge? Again, having it both ways. The people in charge should not have been the lazy stoners.

It was only in the early 20th Century when societies start making it out to be a sin, a crime against society, it came in the same spirit as Prohibition, it was all wrapped up in the same spirit. Poor people could not be trusted to drink alcohol; they blow their paychecks on it, beat their wives and kids, and don't show up for work- that was the spirit of the Temperance movement.

As far for why people don't understand kids getting together at festivals and getting drunk, getting high, listening to music, making out- that can't be explained if someone doesn't want already that. You either find that as a kid very appealing, or you don't. In itself it doesn't harm anyone else, Woodstock wasn't camped out on people's front lawns against their will. If you go to music festivals now, you'll see a lot of the same stuff, except that everything has gone commercial and mainstream, it's all corporate sponsored and legitimate now. Like everything else; someone will find a way to profit from it, and then once that happens, it becomes part of the culture.

#4057058 - 12/29/14 05:55 AM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Allaire]  
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Originally Posted By: Allaire
My dad as well has a deep hate of hippies and it's not because of the pot. Dad enlisted in the USAF in '72 because he heard that his numbers were about to be called. Kinda pissed off when the stopped the draft before his numbers. Almost went to Nam but his orders were changed at the last minute. He was on the plane to go when he was asked to deplane because of the change. He hadn't been to 'Nam and he was still spit on and called baby killer among other such lovely names.



Similar with my Dad, when his number (birthday ballot) came up it all ended.


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#4057167 - 12/29/14 02:33 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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Like everything else; someone will find a way to profit from it, and then once that happens, it becomes part of the culture.

Mechanus, your final statement pretty much sums it up.

"And that's the way it is."

Smoking is bad for you....unless it is pot.

Strange.

#4057274 - 12/29/14 05:38 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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While in the big Venn diagram of the 1960's and early 1970's will show that there is only an intersection between the drug culture and the hippy movement, one didn't have to do drugs to be a hippy (and vice-versa). It was just rare to find a hippy that wasn't smoking dope.

My gripe with filthy hippies isn't about the dope (though, wow, stoner being far down on the list is something, isn't it?) but more about the Marxist crap they spouted and delusional ideas on how to better society. Note I use the word society rather than country, as the only time they spoke well of our nation is when they were screaming about the rights protected by it while being arrested. Seditious acts were always encouraged by hippies, and how they treated soldiers was despicable.

Oliver Stone may be a veteran, but that doesn't mean he is above inventing things out of whole cloth for movies. I can tell you that the least qualified person to comment on the larger picture of any conflict is the troop on the front lines; or more generously, no more qualified than anyone else. He can talk to what he saw and experienced, but that's always localized to his unit. Hell, it's localized to his squad and platoon!


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

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#4057277 - 12/29/14 05:40 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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LOL As if anyone even cares about Oliver Stone's films anymore anyway. He really hasn't been relevant since the 90's.


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#4057328 - 12/29/14 07:22 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted By: Dart


Oliver Stone may be a veteran, but that doesn't mean he is above inventing things out of whole cloth for movies. I can tell you that the least qualified person to comment on the larger picture of any conflict is the troop on the front lines; or more generously, no more qualified than anyone else. He can talk to what he saw and experienced, but that's always localized to his unit. Hell, it's localized to his squad and platoon!


But what I'm saying is that the theme of the film captures the division in America as a whole. That did exist, certainly. No one disputes that. In the beginning, the anti-war movement was largely in the minority. It grew slowly in the mid 60s but not necessarily restricted to hippies, there were some religious groups opposed to it, some pacifists but who were not flower children. It wasn't until 1968 after the Tet Offensive when the tide of public opinion turned. This is known. This is not controversial. That's when America kind of experienced a cultural war- again, which is the theme of the film. The theme of the film captures that conflict- and as I mentioned earlier, the symbolism of one of the characters as a kind of Christ figure, that's a literary device, because Jesus is the 'new' message versus the 'old' message, which is perfectly in line with that theme. When Stone does that, he's not saying literally in his company Jesus showed up, of course- but he is using imagery to explore what was a real thing.

During the Vietnam War era, we can make note of the particular way this conflict happened. It's funny, because many of the wealthy college students at the time who may have escaped the draft got the deferments, these were some of the ones protesting the War. Against them who saw the War as right were often the older generations, often their parents. And, many tended also to be their blue collar peers who didn't get the deferments. So the ones who didn't get the deferments- many didn't want to go, but they weren't protesting it, except for the anti-war veterans groups which returned later.

So that rift did exist. You don't have to be a Vietnam veteran to make note of that. Stone did, but that's not why it's either correct or incorrect because he did, but he did happened to be right about that. You just had to pay attention to US history and that period. In the War, you did get a mix of people from different walks of life- you got draftees from all over, so there are those cultural difference that Stone is relaying here.

With pot it's something similar, because it kind of tagged off that. You have people entrenched in some old view of things, while younger people didn't necessarily have that kind of hang-up.

#4057388 - 12/29/14 09:03 PM Re: Woodstock. And that's the way it is, Walter Cronkite. [Re: Li'lJugs]  
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I wonder if they'll ever start cracking down on pot smoking at concerts?

Rush... New Orleans Arena, the guy sitting next to my wife lit up and was sharing with his buds the biggest joint I've ever seen. Also Orlando Amway Center, a couple of guys in the row in front of us just passing it back and forth. Usually happens when it's dark, the lights brighten and you see smoke everywhere.

Now I'm not complaining, although I'd never do it again I still love the smell (BTW, second hand won't get you high, not even at Pink Floyd). I just wonder if one day we'll see arrests during or after a concert using hidden cameras? I don't want that to happen, don't want the disruption, just wondering.



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