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#4050365 - 12/14/14 01:14 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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Olham Offline
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Ah, I forgot that the "Storcks" were not ONLY the Esc. 3, but also Esc. 73 -
how many units belonged to "Les Cigognes"; does anyone know?


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4050369 - 12/14/14 01:39 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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If we are talking the Storks Combat Group it consisted of 4 figbter squadrons.
103 being one of them and the rest....

#4050379 - 12/14/14 02:09 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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gaw1 Offline
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the dead stay dead.......what nonsense.......we should at least accord the HAs the same courtesy we give ourselves....

#4050399 - 12/14/14 03:12 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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Olham Offline
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Ah, thanks, Duke!


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Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4050488 - 12/14/14 07:27 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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JamesL Offline
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There is an HA in my 1917 jasta 37 campaign who was not in reality an Ace! He was a real historical figure - Kurt Grasshoff, who lead jasta 37 at the time but, he never scored a single kill! In fact he later transferred to the lower league of the Macedonian front in the hope of getting his first kill against less worthy foes and got shot down himself and killed.

Here read it for yourselfs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Grasshoff

I'm in the camp that don't like how HA's cant die till their allotted time. Ok, I accept that this design decision has been made. But why populate WOFF with HA's who were not actually historical aces? There are enough HA's as there is!

Last edited by JamesL; 12/14/14 07:30 PM.
#4050500 - 12/14/14 08:01 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: JamesL]  
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busdriver Offline
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Originally Posted By: JamesL
I'm in the camp that don't like how HA's cant die till their allotted time. Ok, I accept that this design decision has been made. But why populate WOFF with HA's who were not actually historical aces? There are enough HA's as there is!


Think about your specific criticism for a second. You're basically saying you disapprove of populating squadrons/jastas/escadrilles with historically accurate names. You're telling OBD they're wasting their time creating the most accurate atmosphere seen in any air combat sim. At least their efforts are not appreciated (in terms of having value) by you. Having the option to take it or leave it...you'd leave it.

I politely disagree with you. I clearly fall into the historically accurate fan base.

#4050510 - 12/14/14 08:39 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: busdriver]  
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JamesL Offline
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Originally Posted By: busdriver
Think about your specific criticism for a second. You're basically saying you disapprove of populating squadrons/jastas/escadrilles with historically accurate names. You're telling OBD they're wasting their time creating the most accurate atmosphere seen in any air combat sim. At least their efforts are not appreciated (in terms of having value) by you. Having the option to take it or leave it...you'd leave it.

I politely disagree with you. I clearly fall into the historically accurate fan base.


Hang on...

I really like the historically accurate names in the squadrons/jastas/escadrilles. What I don't like is the fact that they cant die until a set time. And I don't see why this superpower should extend to the historically accurate names who were not even aces in reality.

Also I'm not telling OBD that their wasting their time, I really appreciate the work that's gone into WOFF - they have created a masterpiece!

#4050512 - 12/14/14 08:52 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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Olham Offline
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As for Grasshof, you seem to be right, JamesL - I couldn't find him at THE AERODROME,
so I checked him in "THE JASTA PILOTS", and though he seems a well-known name, he
didn't seem to have had any victories, and so he was not an ace.

Maybe OBD are quite aware of that, but found he has a special status.
In that case, HA wouldn't mean "historical ace" but rather "historical aviator".

As for the killing of aces: if I could shoot down Manfred von Richthofen after, let's say,
his fourth kill - he wouldn't even be an ace. And he would definitely not become the famous
"Red Baron" anymore.
I understand OBD's decision to keep these famous men unkilled by us mere simmers - it is
an expression of respect for the real aces; and their opponents, who finally shot them down.


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4050529 - 12/14/14 09:28 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: Olham]  
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JamesL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olham
As for the killing of aces: if I could shoot down Manfred von Richthofen after, let's say,
his fourth kill - he wouldn't even be an ace. And he would definitely not become the famous
"Red Baron" anymore.


I really like that paradox.

If HA's could die then you would get an alternative reality unfolding as historical aces fall and unknown lucky/skilled AI pilots became new aces. Of course this doesn't follow the historical timeline....But is it historically accurate for my current squadron leader Grasshoff to have so far been shot down 5 times to survive each time and be flying next day?

What a great metaphysical divide between us WOFF flyers! If only there was an OPTION button to have dead is dead for HA's then both camps would be satisfied.

#4050538 - 12/14/14 09:52 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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I think my head hurts...

#4050541 - 12/14/14 09:58 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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gecko Offline
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What variety we would lose if the ranks of historical pilots were thinned only to the aces. Each one of these guys has his own skin, ace or not. If you don't have it, buy the skin pack, it will make you appreciate them so much more.

#4050669 - 12/15/14 03:39 AM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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Banjoman Offline
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I'll join into the fray, I agree completely with the OP. How HAs are handled has turned me off of the game for a while. My last mission I was leading a flight of three SPAD 13s in 1918 and we ran into a flight of German two-seaters. We attacked and my two wingmen both burst into flames. This combat took place at 16000 ft and the wings of both planes collapsed and came off. Both planes became meteors plunging to the ground. When I returned to base both pilots had been lightly wounded. I really like this sim and it is the best out there, but that is just stupid. Nobody survives a 16000 ft plunge without wings while totally encased in flames. Flame me if you will, but that is a serious immersion killer for me and apparently for many others as well. I just don't see why you can't add a toggle in the workshop. That way everybody is happy.


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#4050892 - 12/15/14 03:37 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: gecko]  
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MudWasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: gecko
What variety we would lose if the ranks of historical pilots were thinned only to the aces. Each one of these guys has his own skin, ace or not. If you don't have it, buy the skin pack, it will make you appreciate them so much more.


Very true gecko!

#4053103 - 12/19/14 06:54 AM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: Winding Man]  
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KodiakJac Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winding Man
Guys at some stage you might want to just enjoy WOFF2 for what it is...we have no plans to change HA's as I have already said nor are we adding content to WOFF2 for free.

If by some miracle sales pick up...

WM


While I'm quite happy with the workaround I described earlier in this thread, I would gladly pay $45 for a mod that made HA's mortal. I think Scout had the best idea I've heard so far:

If HA killed by player then Mortal
If HA killed is in player's squad then Mortal
else...HA is immortal

Then we wouldn't see HA's return who we killed, nor see our HA squad mates get killed only to return in a couple of days. Other than those two conditions HA's remain immortal so they don't thin out too fast. And if a toggle to turn this functionality on and off is too complex, then just let the mod make the change permanently and for those who prefer all HA's to remain immortal they can simply not install the mod.

I think you might be pleasantly surprised how many players would buy this mod!

Merry Christmas to all WOFF players and OBD! aroundthetree


Dogfighting is what you do "after" you drop your bombs and blow something up!
Can you say "JABO!" thumbsup
#4053135 - 12/19/14 11:38 AM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: gecko]  
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DukeIronHand Offline
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Originally Posted By: gecko
What variety we would lose if the ranks of historical pilots were thinned only to the aces. Each one of these guys has his own skin, ace or not. If you don't have it, buy the skin pack, it will make you appreciate them so much more.


Agreed.
Since this thread has resurfaced I will say that the default system is good BUT I will add that I like to fly with the "stud" squadrons - J11 and 56 among my favorite careers. And 1 and 60. I guess I have a lot.

The one thing that sometimes is a annoyance is that with the great squadrons sometimes your entire flight will be HA's and knowing yours is the only permanent death does take something from the flight.

The option that I would like to try is the one originally recomended by Scout for a change of pace - make the "minor aces" mortal and keep the great HA's the way they are. I would probably give that system a go to see how it plays. Of course I can hear the debates here on who is great and who is not.

This is one of those areas that OBD will never be able to make everyone happy I am afraid. And since they have stated they are not going to touch it (not that I blame them) this will be one for the modders to try to statisfy all camps.

#4053648 - 12/20/14 01:53 PM Re: I *HATE* HAs [Re: CatKnight]  
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Wodin Offline
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Liverpool
I shot down three aces over two flights one of them being Manfred at the start of his career the other two where also at the start and where big names..so though I understand the immersion breaking part I also wouldn't want all the aces dead before they even got started..

Maybe one it can be an option..or a die is rolled to see if they are killed or not.

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