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#4050015 - 12/13/14 04:11 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Bongo, you know as well as anyone else there is a difference. BOS got better lights and shadows, better game physics compared to anything yet published.
There are a lot of things not that great, but that goes for cod and DCS also, it is a damn myth that everything should be a copy of DCS and COD when it comes to FM, just go ahead and search on you tube, none are flawless.
People just cannot let go of a sim they do not like, there has to be drama connected to each and every one that abandoned a sim.

#4050023 - 12/13/14 04:28 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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BOS has nice graphics, reasonable physics, far from the best though and has some really odd quirks.

#4050024 - 12/13/14 04:31 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: bongodriver
So Oleg should really have just taken the existing IL-2 engine and taken away graphic customisation and achieved exactly the same as BOS then.

That's the only difference you notice between the two?


Look, everyone just keeps banging on about BOS working 'out of the box' and not taking 7 years to develop, no wonder, it is just a recycled ageing game engine with some features taken out and repackaged, the same could have been achieved the way I described.

#4050028 - 12/13/14 04:52 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Sorry Sharpe, but as far as complex and scalability BoS is at the bottom. I knew Bliss's post would bring out the defenders. Truth is BoS has done nothing unique. It works for some, not all. When it does work its a dull small scale game and nothing more.

#4050037 - 12/13/14 04:59 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Houston, Tx.
By SharpeXB:
"The system spec for one of those old IL-2 games can be met by one of today's smartphones. So how sophisticated can it really be?" (end)

Be sure, but try to run what "one of those old IL-2 games" have become with only the official Team Daedalus patches on one and see.

Then add any of the mod packs and say the same.

The genius of the original IL2 is the adaptability of the code.

Oleg said, a long time ago, that what was possible in the original code would demolish contempory computers and the state of the game today supports his statement.

So, we have BOS, like it on their terms or get lost.
That is really too bad, since some still here and many long gone had high hopes for the game.

A lesson learned....never, ever pre fund something and especially never buy anything from 1c or 777.

They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.




#4050060 - 12/13/14 06:01 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser

Oleg said, a long time ago, that what was possible in the original code would demolish contempory computers and the state of the game today supports his statement.

I'm sure that's true of any game engine. 777 said as much about DN ie you could make it more complex by a factor of about 10x but nobody's machine could handle it.
Hey I just tried running CoD on 2x 980s in SLI. Woooo fly over London at 60fps!


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#4050122 - 12/13/14 08:50 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Originally Posted By: ATAG_Bliss
Originally Posted By: lokitexas
Its funny that a product 1c made and left behind is one now a thorn in the side of BoS.


Well, one is an actual IL-2 title with vision of Oleg. The other not so much. I've been saying for years what BoS will be, compared to what we're used to for IL-2. Back then, I was labeled someone with an axe to grind or "insert insult here". Now, obviously, everyone can see for themselves that everything I've said is indeed right on the money.


Quote:
The decision to go with DN seems to be a strait quick money one. It gives them this whole we made it in 18 months boost even though some models and of course the engine were already there. It seems more evident the way they pushed it out the door ASAP for "us" in order to have us not to have wait for a new sim. Personal opinion, I would rather wait for a few more years (if even that) to move to a different engine and not use DN. The shelf life of the DN engine seems short. In the long run it will hurt BoS.


The DN engine has never allowed the air war to support the ground war. It's just not in the cards. After constant hounding about the limitations, I was basically told they'd need to spend millions and create a new game engine in order to do anything more than what you can currently. Obviously, we're not getting a new game engine anytime soon.

Quote:
Why did they not continue with the original plan and go CLoD then Battle of Moscow? Too much time? Maybe not the right talent? Already a bad taste from the release CLoD? Maybe a bit of all?


This is pretty complicated. 1st off, for anyone that has IL2COD, you'll notice the folder that says SoftClub. SoftClub was an investor for Clod. The problem (depending on how you look at it) was SoftClub started butting heads with Oleg. Whether it be about release status, money already spent, readiness of the game, Oleg, as we all know, strives for perfection. The money men at Softclub didn't much care other than getting some return on their investment.

This back and forth goes on for a while, before Oleg finally decides it's not "worth it" to put up with the crap any longer. If anyone has been following Oleg, you'll notice his latest revolutionary achievement with Vizzera (spelling?) is just one more revolutionary piece of software for his portfolio. He's essentially created a software that allows people to have a tour of a proposed house, structure, or any sort of construction project (big or small) before the 1st piece of machinery is on the job site for putting down the correct grade. And this software will show any design flaws before the project is even started. Just like anything else he does, it has made waves across the industry.

So with Oleg throwing in the towel, also goes with him his main programmer. To say IL2COD code is complex is an understatement. Inside sources, which I will not mention, have said IL2FB (yep 2001), is much more complex than ROF code. Now when you realize Clod is 100x the complexity of IL2FB, you get a real sense of just how much there is going on in Cliffs. So imagine the guy that knows everything about the code is now gone. And the person that created the vision for the game is now gone. In comes Ilya, trying to save it all. The new programmer can't make heads or tails of things (understandable as few on the planet probably could).

Just as a side note for complexity before continuing. Imagine you're playing your favorite flight sim and you look at the altimeter. Seems pretty simple to get a reading from the sea level / ground level put in the game from some sort of coding. And you're right, it would be. But no no no, not Oleg. Instead he has to go take the actual engineering and mathematical calculations directly from the company that made the altimeter for the British planes, and then turns around and does the same thing for the German/Italian counter parts. That means the percentage of error, the needle movements, right down to the exacting fluctuations, are all based on the real life altimeters as well. Would you or anyone else notice something like this? Heck no! If we were ever to think of such a thing (how do they figure out the altimeter in game?) we'd just think (use formula that measures distance from the ground to the plane -/+ the elevation of actual ground and we'd get reading in our planes. So, then couple this knowledge, this painstaking detail into the other instruments in the plane, and next thing you know, you realize just how much is going on, and all for something you'd never even notice in the 1st place.

So while Ilya is trying to salvage the sim, and is forced to release the game, he's also on a time table for IL2-Online (BoM). The reason for the lack of fixes, painstaking slow fixes etc., are simply because the programmer had to try to learn someone else's 1/2 finished code and code that is stupendously complex. There's aren't many people on the planet that could probably work with it or make heads or tails of it. Lets just say, anyone who thinks the FMs in IL2COD are simple, should really see the flight model code sometime. You name the parameter, the calculations, the physics of ANYTHING the plane is doing, the math, physics, engineering, and calculations are all there.

Luckily, one of those (1 in a billion) genius programmers is in TF. All the stuff that the programmers couldn't fix with source code, our guy is doing without. The programmer for Ilya worked for months trying to fix the atmosphere bug (planes would only go so high / vanilla game), while our guy, without the code, somehow figures it out, re-writes quite a bit of stuff, some having to do exhaust back pressure amongst other things, and viola, it works. Same could be said about 1000 different things, the mirrors, the track editor, netcode, w/e.

The point is all of this, to be perfectly blunt, they didn't work with the Cliffs engine because, quite frankly, there's no way in hell they'd be able to figure it out. This is not a knock or anything, but they can't even figure out how to put trim on an axis so all us flight simmers could actually use those expensive throttle quadrants we bought.

So in the end, it is what it is. We'd love to make 1C money and we'd love to expand Cliffs. With or without them, we're not going to stop anytime soon. To throw this piece of simulation software away would be the biggest travesty in all of WWII flight simming IMO.

And the reality of the situation is the only reason this got totally dumped, is because 777 went to 1C with their "ours is the greatest" propaganda machine, right when IL2COD was hurting the most. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the original IL2 (2001 release) didn't completely return on it's investment until several expansions later. And through all those expansions it ends up being the best selling CFS on the planet with millions upon millions of copies sold. Cliffs could have and should have gone the same route. Once the engine was fixed and it was a content and feature pumping out machine, they would have been on easy street for many many many years to come. And with that Clod engine (ability to interact with ground forces, tanks, AI, artillery etc) there's well over a decade before anyone would ever think it's getting "old".




Interesting stuff from someone who actually seems to know what went on behind the scenes.

Never bought that, shall we say, optimistic take on the BoS engine.

Its a bloody shame CloD went the way it did. Only shows that when other devs start knocking Oleg and his creation for whatever "flaws" they know just about zero what they are talking about.

And i totally agree on the trim on an axis thing. Hardly instills confidence does it.

#4050127 - 12/13/14 08:53 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: ATAG_Bliss

This back and forth goes on for a while, before Oleg finally decides it's not "worth it" to put up with the crap any longer.

But this is after SEVEN YEARS! of working on the game! That's an unbelievable eternity in game development time! How much longer would have been necessary to finish CoD?! Ten years?! Don't attack 777 because they actually succeeded where everyone else has failed. Creating a good working WWII combat flight sim. When 777 made Rise of Flight they didn't obsess over cockpit instruments for 6 years. They got the job done on time and made it work. Oleg might have been brilliant in other ways but he clearly had no sense of proportion in managing the development.




Didn't take 7 years. As far as i know they started to develop CloD on the old IL2 engine but after a few years Oleg realized it wouldn't, no matter how scaleble it was, be able to do what he envisioned. So they started all over again building the new CloD engine.

Maby Bliss could correct me if im wrong?

And as far as i can remember, 777 didn't even develop the RoF engine, seem to remember the game was called "Knights of the sky" or sum such before 777 came along. Seems to be operating standards by that company, take over other peoples hard work and call it thire own. Wouldnt surprise me if they "borrowed" stuff from the CloD engine in one form or the other, getting the game out in record time "thx to their own swet, blood and tears".


Btw Bliss

What are the chances of 1C selling the entire code to for ex ATAG or to any one else for that matter?

Feel free to write more stuff from behind the scene of CloD. I think alot of people are interested, i know i am. winkngrin

#4050129 - 12/13/14 08:56 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
Be sure, but try to run what "one of those old IL-2 games" have become with only the official Team Daedalus patches on one and see.

Then add any of the mod packs and say the same.

It doesn't matter how much old IL-2 is kept alive as a Frankensim. There are iPhone games with better graphics. It's horribly dated.


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#4050135 - 12/13/14 09:03 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.

No, don't lay that one on 777. Oleg did the damage himself. We are fortunate 1CGS is saving the brand.


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#4050142 - 12/13/14 09:11 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.

No, don't lay that one on 777. Oleg did the damage himself. We are fortunate 1CGS is saving the brand.


Or ruining it. Depends on who you ask.

There is nothing IL2-like in BoS that I see, aside from being a wwii flight game. Its literally a more restrictive RoF with WWII planes.

#4050152 - 12/13/14 09:36 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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Originally Posted By: Ghost_swe

And as far as i can remember, 777 didn't even develop the RoF engine, seem to remember the game was called "Knights of the sky" or sum such before 777 came along.


IIRC originally the project was started by the Gennadich Team who made the popular IL-2 Commander server software, I think originally it was going to use the IL-2 engine. They changed the name of the game and the team name changed to NeoQB and they released Rise of Flight long before 777 got involved - I still have my NeoQB badged boxed version of Rise Of Flight

Last edited by Revvin; 12/13/14 09:36 PM.
#4050153 - 12/13/14 09:37 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: lokitexas]  
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Originally Posted By: lokitexas
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.

No, don't lay that one on 777. Oleg did the damage himself. We are fortunate 1CGS is saving the brand.


Or ruining it. Depends on who you ask.

There is nothing IL2-like in BoS that I see, aside from being a wwii flight game. Its literally a more restrictive RoF with WWII planes.

Well before 1CGS created BoS the whole combat flight sim genre was pretty well dead and buried. They are the ONLY company currently making a product like this. I would say that means they have saved it. The whole world has changed since the original IL-2 series was created. Principally the cost of developing a game like this. So the term "IL-2 like" isn't really relevant. It would be impossible to create that type of game today. Basically that's what CoD tried to do. Just look at the cost it probably took to make a game full of click pit planes that DCS sells for $49 apiece. CoD tried to sell the whole game for that. It went bust


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#4050162 - 12/13/14 09:57 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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I was wrong we do not passion the combat sim genre to death, we simply analyze it to death....

#4050163 - 12/13/14 09:58 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: Ghost_swe]  
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Originally Posted By: Ghost_swe
What are the chances of 1C selling the entire code

1CGS already had the chance to use it and didn't. That should tell us something. If anyone could have been successful with it they already would have been. Luthier and co tried patching it for a year after CoD was released and were not very successful.


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#4050170 - 12/13/14 10:16 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: SharpeXB]  
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Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.

No, don't lay that one on 777. Oleg did the damage himself. We are fortunate 1CGS is saving the brand.


That's rich! ha ha

With friends like 1CGS saving the Il-2 brand with BoS

Who needs enemies?

That is the comment of the week! "1CGS is saving the brand" with BoS rofl


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#4050212 - 12/13/14 11:49 PM Re: Here's the question. [Re: SkullBiscuit]  
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Originally Posted By: SkullBiscuit
Originally Posted By: SharpeXB
Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
They took advantage of the IL2 Sturmovik reputation and damaged it.

No, don't lay that one on 777. Oleg did the damage himself. We are fortunate 1CGS is saving the brand.


That's rich! ha ha

With friends like 1CGS saving the Il-2 brand with BoS

Who needs enemies?

That is the comment of the week! "1CGS is saving the brand" with BoS rofl

1CGS didn't just save the IL-2 brand. They're reintroducing the whole genre.
How many combat fligh sim games are there right now which are. Current. Good. Supported.
Rise of Flight
DCS: Flaming Cliffs (this I would consider a combat sim instead of a study sim)
And IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad.

That a short list. So it's tragic to see "fans" of flight sim games attacking the only company that's sucessfully making one.


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#4050226 - 12/14/14 12:26 AM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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DCS not a study sim? Have you lost your mind? You can't even map trim on an axis in BOS and the entire start up is done with one click, it's not reintroducing the genre, it is dumbing it down to make it appealing to the console crowd.

#4050230 - 12/14/14 12:39 AM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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DCS: Flaming Cliffs is what he wrote ... press "E" to start the engines.

I suspect he knows exactly where his mind is smile

#4050234 - 12/14/14 12:59 AM Re: Here's the question. [Re: WernerVoss]  
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Houston, Tx.
SharpeXB: "How many combat fligh sim games are there right now which are. Current. Good. Supported."

Current: Cliffs Of Dover, IL2 version 4.12.2 (soon to be 4.13)
Good: Cliffs Of Dover, IL2 version 4.12.2 (soon to be 4.13)
Supported: Cliffs Of Dover, IL2 version 4.12.2 (soon to be 4.13)

I left out WWI but IL2 has a really well done WWI option and Wings Over Flanders Fields seems to have a lot of support.

Are you a part of a tag team (other teammate on a break) or have you guys just ran out of people to lecture at the BOS forums?

You will probably not change many minds here but good luck.

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