Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#4034874 - 11/12/14 01:14 AM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,420
JFM Offline
Member
JFM  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,420
Naples, FL
Despite popular misconception, those planes were strong. The Fokker Dr.I wings could sustain a load factor of nearly 8 Gs. Pilots would likely pass out or stall the plane before reaching that.

The initial problem with the Fokker wings was one of construction (the internal moisture problem Olham noted), not airframe structural design. Once they fixed that the wings were good to go, and a similar airframe was used on the Fokker D.VII.

#4034876 - 11/12/14 01:16 AM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: vonBaur]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,066
Robert_Wiggins Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,066
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: vonBaur
The Dr1 can perform a skid turn in WOFF. It seems to go to the right better than the left (although that could be my imagination), but both directions are possible. With full rudder application you can change heading as much as 60 to 70 degrees in just a few seconds but it's impossible to maintain control more much longer than that. However if you don't apply as much rudder (maybe 50% or so, I haven't quantified it) you can accomplish a full 360*, and theortically continue indefinitely. It takes a considerable time...I didn't have a stopwatch but I gave up counting at 20 seconds and wasn't quite halfway around.


Precisely my experience Sir thumbsup


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4035010 - 11/12/14 01:41 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 907
Nietzsche Offline
Member
Nietzsche  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 907
Grevenbroich, Germany
8 Gs... incredible, what has been achieved in those early days. Completely without State-of-the-Art Computer analysed Stress Simulations or even a Pocket Calculator. Pen, Paper and a Ruler was about all they had... and not much Experience, neither.
I mean, just take a look at those pics. You wouldn't think that this Construction would stand the Weight of a Briefcase. Ingenious copter

#4035023 - 11/12/14 02:05 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
High over the Front
Those kind of pictures should be saved and brought out for any damage model discussions.
Not many places too hide in those aircraft! And note the fuel tanks.

#4035035 - 11/12/14 02:16 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Nietzsche]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
Olham Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Olham  Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Hotshot

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
Originally Posted By: Nietzsche
8 Gs... incredible, what has been achieved in those early days.
Completely without State-of-the-Art Computer analysed Stress Simulations or even a Pocket Calculator.

Believe it or not - they just put sandbags on the main wingspar in tests.
That way they found out how much a wing could bear before it would break.
Here are some photos from the Fokker company:








Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4035047 - 11/12/14 02:54 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
Olham Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Olham  Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Hotshot

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
One more example for a broken spar. If I get that right, the spar broke under 1000 kilogram.
The addition read "septuple". So the wing must have been able to bear "sextuple" the weight.



Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4035051 - 11/12/14 03:05 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Olham]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,066
Robert_Wiggins Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,066
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Olham
One more example for a broken spar. If I get that right, the spar broke under 1000 kilogram.
The addition read "septuple". So the wing must have been able to bear "sextuple" the weight.




Thanks for the post Olham! You surprised me with that post. Very informative Sir!


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4035105 - 11/12/14 05:12 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
Olham Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Olham  Offline
Barmy Baron from Berlin
Hotshot

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,739
Originally Posted By: Robert_Wiggins
[You surprised me with that post. Very informative Sir!

Thank you, Robert.
Sometimes, when I realised I knew something AND remembered that I knew it,
I surprise mySELF. Mmuahahahahaaa!!!


Vice-President of the BOC (Barmy OFFers Club)
Member of the 'Albatros Aviators Club' - "We know how to die with Style!"
#4035210 - 11/12/14 09:33 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
High over the Front
Speaking of Fokker wing strength there is photo of, I am fairly certain, of a Fokker D VIII.
It shows Anthony himself, I believe, and about 15 or 20 guys standing on the upper (only) wing of the aircraft.
He seemed to always get a lot of bad press about structural issues so this was a PR photo.
Of course, as demonstrated with the Alb series, static strength ( men and sandbags) was never an issue but the twist and turns of flight/motion that caused issues.
And forgive my choice of words I forget the physics terms for the forces I am trying to describe.

#4035489 - 11/13/14 07:14 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: DukeIronHand]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,248
JimAttrill Offline
Member
JimAttrill  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,248
Johannesburg, South Africa
Here's a free ebook on that very subject. [url=http://www.freebookspot.es/TopTen.aspx?Category_ID=124][/url] http://www.freebookspot.es/TopTen.aspx?Category_ID=124

That shows the first page - the actual book is on page 1301 but you can have fun looking at all the others on the way if you like.


DID Campaign URL: http://www.attrill.co.za/NewWOFFcampaign.htm

LG 27" 27mp65 monitor; EVGA GTX970 GPU; AMD 965 CPU o/c to 3.8Ghz; OCZ 240Gb SSD; Corsair 750w PSU

RAF 1966-73 Cpl Engine Fitter (Retd.) Trenchard brat 206th Entry
DBA and systems programmer 1981-2005

Skype JimAttrill
#4035511 - 11/13/14 08:19 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,172
vonBaur Offline
Member
vonBaur  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,172
IIRC, the original design and prototype had no interplane struts and the wings withstood the forces fine. Pilots' worries about some flutter is what caused Fokker to add them.


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4035565 - 11/13/14 09:35 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,129
High over the Front
I have heard that story also.
Fokker (or Platz) felt the wings were strong enough without them but they were added at the insistence of the pilots.

#4038635 - 11/20/14 10:02 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Olham]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 599
JimBobb Offline
Member
JimBobb  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: Olham
Originally Posted By: Nietzsche
Glued?!?
What did they use on the lower Wings? Scotch Tape?
skyisfalling


AFAIK, the panels were glued and nailed together.

The main spars of the lower wings were much shorter and maybe
didn't break up as easily as the upper one did.





Just noticed WOFF has this modelled also



jawdrop

#4040827 - 11/25/14 01:40 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 865
HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
Just shoot me...
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 865
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Olham, are those your models? If so, I need a raging green smiley of envy!

And thanks for the old timey pics! Very informative posts!

#4040834 - 11/25/14 01:43 PM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,064
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,064
Florida
Good grief JimBobb. It's amazing how much is going on "under the hood" in WOFF!


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4041961 - 11/27/14 01:53 AM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Hellshade]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 864
Hauksbee Offline
Member
Hauksbee  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 864
DeForest, Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Hellshade
I'm not the aircraft expert but from what little I've gathered over the years, I would say the following. Camel turns faster to the right, DR 1 is faster to the left.

Why would this be? They were both rotary engines. Did they spin in opposite directions?


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
#4041991 - 11/27/14 02:58 AM Re: DR 1 or Camel [Re: Nietzsche]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 642
Nefaro Offline
Member
Nefaro  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 642
Originally Posted By: Nietzsche
Glued?!?
What did they use on the lower Wings? Scotch Tape?
skyisfalling




A recreation of the original Nieuport 28 plans showed that the part of the upper wing, where the fabric tended to rip away from the fram in high-speed dives, was improperly nailed/tacked. It was only glued in that certain section, which was the reason for the tearing tendency.

Obviously things didn't always go so well when one or the other was skimped.


From what I gathered, the standard construction technique of the time was to use both nails and glue to secure the wing fabric. Not sure if there were some rare models that may have done it differently during WW1.

Last edited by Nefaro; 11/27/14 03:00 AM.

(For Tech Reference)
i7-4770k Intel Processor @3.5Ghz, 16GB System RAM, GTX760 2GB video, 250GB SSD, 1TB HDD (with Win7-64 on it).
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Polovski 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
intruder tries to infiltrate NAS Jacksonville
by Tom_Weiss. 08/21/19 12:21 PM
Bald ??
by rwatson. 08/20/19 08:17 PM
Flying ??
by rwatson. 08/20/19 11:37 AM
Happy Aviation Day
by oldgrognard. 08/19/19 11:08 PM
Another Annual done
by oldgrognard. 08/19/19 10:10 PM
New Comanche game
by wormfood. 08/19/19 09:52 PM
One Giant Leap for the Small Green Men!
by THX-1138. 08/19/19 08:52 PM
Edinburgh Fringe - this year's funniest jokes.
by RedToo. 08/19/19 08:25 PM
Underwater Official Trailer
by Red2112. 08/19/19 04:15 PM
Farmers Kid
by rwatson. 08/19/19 02:31 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0