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#4034017 - 11/10/14 04:57 AM ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense  
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Righteous Offline
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I have played the AGM-88 HARM training mission and some of the Single Missions and Instant Action with the enemy aircraft and ground defense levels set to Expert. I find that by simply deploying the ALE-50, dropping one chaff packet and beaming the missile I can avoid a hit every time without fail and without any maneuvering after the beam except to maintain the missile at the 3 or 9 O'clock position on my EW gear. In fact, I am not sure the chaff is necessary. The SA-10s often explode in midair before getting halfway to my plane and the AA-10s, AA-10Cs and AA-12s don't come near me.

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#4039438 - 11/22/14 05:04 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Wait till you fly the missile avoidance phase of our basic quals. Yow will have a new found fear and respect for SAMs. I too used to think that the SAMs were easily defeated... If the mission is built correctly you'll be sweating it on veteran level.


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
#4039661 - 11/23/14 04:26 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Can I get a copy of this mission?

#4039666 - 11/23/14 04:48 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Let me check with the CO.


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
#4039758 - 11/23/14 02:03 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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It has been made clear to me that VFA-41 training missions are for the sole use of VFA-41 Instructor Pilots in the training of pilot candidates. Once a pilot completes training they will have the full collection of training missions, but they are for Black Aces use only, sorry. I can only offer the missions available for download from our website. Please feel free to try the missions created by Shadow and Dragon, these missions will demonstrate how a good mission builder can make or break the difficulty of Janes F-18.

These missions are optimized to be flown online by a flight of human pilots... good luck

Here is the link
http://www.vfa-41.net/NCAPE_Missions.php




The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
#4040069 - 11/24/14 03:04 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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That rather defeats the purpose of a simulation.

#4040132 - 11/24/14 06:55 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Feel free to make your own then. What's the point of flying with only AI wingmen in every mission? You want a simulation? Try it with human pilots flying with you. I can see you're not that interested in flying with other pilots, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are many missions and campaigns out there written for single player, I'm sure you'll find some that challenge you.


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
#4040361 - 11/24/14 05:51 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Originally Posted By: Righteous
That rather defeats the purpose of a simulation.


um.... no it doesn't. how did you figure that out?

#4040556 - 11/24/14 10:59 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Righteous Offline
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The point is to train against increasingly difficult and realistic enemies. You claim to have a more difficult scenario than those that came with the simulation or that I am currently capable of making as I have yet to be hit by a radar guided SAM despite having had several hundred fired at me from different ranges and while I was in different flight profiles and attacking other targets. You are not allowing others access to something that your mates claim is more difficult and may help them get better. Thus, you are defeating the point of a simulation that allows for sharing of missions among many people.


#4040701 - 11/25/14 04:38 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Lion Offline
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Maybe thats your point, but the sim remains a simulation whether or not that particular scenario is provided to you or not...

If you want I can build you a mission from scratch featuring any available SAM platform and you can test yourself freely in it.

#4040722 - 11/25/14 05:48 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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I have done that repeatedly. The outcome is always the same. The SAMs can not touch me and I do not have to do very much about them when they launch. I am trying to determine if anyone else has a similar outcome or of there is really a need for ECM, decoys and chaff. I did not even use the ALE-50 and I dropped eight chaff packets to evade 22 missiles. I then destroyed the entire SA-10B battery with a single AGM-154C I dropped on the Flap Lid.

#4040990 - 11/25/14 05:21 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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My mission would feature far more than just a single SA-10B battery at close range for you to evade.

Last edited by Lion; 11/25/14 05:24 PM.
#4041045 - 11/25/14 06:51 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Hey fellow virtual pilots,
I don't mean to interject myself uninvited into this discussion but I find the question of F/A-18 SAM threats interesting. I remember surface to air threats being the most dangerous. I would like to know what Righteous thinks of the threats in the VFA-41 Chemical Alley mission. You can download it here - http://www.vfa-41.net/NCAPE_Missions.php
It's one of my first missions and I wrote it as a single player mission that would also support a small group in multi-player. I suggest it because the threats are basically surface to air if you don't loiter at the target area until the alert fighters show up. It is not a SAM evasion training mission but I always thought the SAMs are challenging in it. Righteous, I would like to hear your thoughts?
Respectfully,
Shadow

#4041352 - 11/26/14 04:35 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Shadow629]  
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The 55K6-3 EW radar seems to pull the HARM off of the Snow Drift even if I have the SD icon selected on the HARM SMS page. I noticed the same thing with the Tin Shield when trying to hit a Flap Lid in some of the test missions I made. The HARM goes for the EW radar instead if it is close to the SAM radar.
You put WP3 nearly on top of the SA-11 site. I did not fly at low level knowing there were SA-15s about and they can be defeated with altitude alone. I flew from WP2 to WP3 at 20000 feet and 400 knots and destroyed the EW and Snow Drift radars by firing a HARM when I got to 25nm from WP3. I had to turn back and engage the SD after the EW radar ceased radiating. This left a hole in their defenses. I then ordered three and four to attack the target building. I covered them and destroyed the SA-8 that was in their way and tracked two SU-27s which I drug into range of three and four who then destroyed one after they fired several AA-12s at my section and hit my wingman. I destroyed the other Su-27. Three and four then attacked some helicopters, which is a waste of missiles, before I could call them back to formation.
I got a partial completion message at the end even though we hit the target with two GBU-29s and I got destruction notices in the playback for several targets. That building does not look hardened and I can not see it surviving 4000 pounds of bombs.
The Krivaks are a nice touch, but you can see their wakes for miles and I had to get pretty close to get one to shoot at me. Is there any way to set their speeds? They seem to be moving awfully fast for the fjords they were transiting and their wakes were visible for at least 15 miles.
I took the flight back over the water after destroying the Su-27s and Mi-24s. One MiG-25 showed up and we quickly dispatched him. Two MiG-29s appeared and I pulled them into range of three and four who destroyed them. Two more MiG-25s came screaming in from the west. I hit one with an AMRAAM and that seemed to deter them from attacking me even though they were in range. I had my ASPJ active but not the ALE-50 and I saw they were in range but they did not attack. I got some warnings about their radar activity on my ASE display but no missile warnings. They turned and flew off. I did not bother to chase them since there is little chance of a stern conversion against a MiG-25.
The SAMs were about as useful as I expected. You seem to have attempted a trap with the Krivaks by putting the waypoints near enough to the shore while southbound to the target that they could have had a shot at low flying aircraft. Their navalized SA-8s are not very dangerous to high flying aircraft.
The final tally was four AA-12, six SA-11, one SA-8, one SA-N-4 and one SA-15 fired at my aircraft by the enemy to no effect. They did shootdown my wingman with an AA-12 and they fired three or four SA-11s and at least two more AA-12s at the others in my flight. My flight fired four AGM-88, two GBU-29, four AIM-9Xs and 12 AIM-120Cs which destroyed one Snow Drift, one 55K6-3, one SA-8, one SA-15, three Mi-24s, two MiG-29s, two Su-27s, one MiG-25 and the target. I also damaged a MiG-25.

#4041355 - 11/26/14 04:42 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Righteous Offline
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Lion, I suppose you could overlap the SAM batteries or send some MiGs to try to get me to fight over the SAMs since they tend not to fire while enemy planes are around. Just keep in mind, however, that the simulation does not account for doppler shift and frequency interference among overlapping batteries. You can ask the US Army how that worked out for them in OIF when Patriot batteries shot down a USN FA-18C and a Tornado GR4 killing all three pilots because the automatic system classified the two aircraft as TBMs and fired PAC-3s at them.
Besides, I have put up several batteries and SHORAD vehicles at once. The same thing happens. The screen shots are simply illustrative in nature.

#4042054 - 11/27/14 07:21 AM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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Thanks for your feed back. If the target had been destroyed, you would get a mission success debrief. But it sounds like you did well managing your AI flight.

#4042100 - 11/27/14 12:10 PM Re: ARH, SARH and CG Missile Defense [Re: Righteous]  
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I got the Shed 3 Destroyed message twice sandwiched between several Shop Building Destroyed messages from the same debrief after the mission. The issue is that Warehouse 7 must be destroyed not the "2 x Shed 3" as in the debrief text. The Factory complex targets are as follows:
Shop Building
Shop Building
Shop Building
Smokestack 1
Shed 3
Shed 3
Warehouse 3
Shed 4
Shed 4
Shed 4
Shed 4
Warehouse 7
Warehouse 7 must be destroyed, but striking it will elicit a "Target Destroyed" message from Betty because at least one nearby building is usually destroyed while Warehouse 7 is merely damaged even though it looks like a mess. Usually, two of the Shop Buildings and the Smokestack are destroyed when Warehouse 7 is hit. The two Shed 3s are also very close and may be destroyed as well. This is confusing because the debrief states, "THE FACTORY EQUIPMENT WAS NOT COMPLETELY DESTROYED. It may be listed as "2 x Shed 3" in kill data. It is possible to see it listed as Destroyed if it was only heavily damaged. One more bomb would have finished the job. COMMAND WILL HAVE TO COMMIT MORE RESOURCES TO COMPLETE THIS MISSION." A target is listed as Damaged or Destroyed in the debrief. If it was Damaged then later Destroyed then it is marked as Destroyed for the purposes of goal tracking. If it was only Damaged then it is listed as Damaged in the debrief. There is no "heavily damaged" state that the software tracks for determining when a goal is met. A player will succeed in the mission only if the event list contains the statement, "Warehouse 7 Destroyed By ....," in the mission replay debrief even if none of the other buildings are destroyed. You should change the debrief to reflect this fact so people have an accurate reason for not completing the mission objectives since destroying the two Shed 3s does not set the Must Destroy Goal Flag to True.



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