It always bugged me....... something is missing here









Now i remember what !






Would love to see the white scarf

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Too Hollywood for me JimBobb. Historically, our RL counterparts flew with their scarves tucked tightly inside their flight suits as they had enough distractions already to occupy their mind. Didn't need to add a tugging, snapping silk scarf to the mix.

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The long waving white scarf is actually one of those immortal myths, which is wrong.
The pilots used scarfs to keep their neck warm.
Silken scarf (often white) were used, because silk doesn't chafe the skin, when you
have to turn your head as much as they had, to check six.
But in any case would you wrapp the scarf around your neck, not let it flutter behind.
Firstly, because it wouldn't keep you warm, and secondly because it would cause some
drag on your next in the flying wind.

So, please, no scarf. Another sim has them - but it's wrong.

Ok how about streamers on the struts of the leads aircraft?
Except on mine of course.

Lead streamers would be a great thing to have

Scarves are a no... absolutely wrong, and as stated it's all because of the 1930's films that showed 'dashing pilots' with scarves in the wind... total bull.

Streamers to indicate flight leaders etc are a definite yes though!

Think the effects is just similar on a motorbike and believe me it is no fun when your scarf is waving behind your neck. I always use a safety pin to be sure the knot is never become loose. Think the same non-pleasant effect will be on a plane.

If you take a close look on the WW1 demo planes, you will notice that the scarf is never at the neck of the pilot, but mounted closely to the back of his seat.

So historical this waving scarf is indeed wrong.
But for the game it self, this could be, in my humble opinion, a nice add-on, like streamers.

Two streamers for a flight leader, one for a section leader, according to Gould Lee...that would be absolutely great to have the flight leader crate wearing these ...is this technically possible ?

Love the flight leader streamer! Also,I still feel that small icon underneath only the flight leader would be superb here.It could change to signal him giving hand signals so that a small ^ is taking off while >/< signals in flight/rtb and + signals enemy spotted engage etc.Small * under the flight leader of a flight you are tasked to escort would be great also.

I like your suggestions. I would recommend putting it in the "Wish List" thread. That is likely where the Devs will look for things.

Good idea.

Yeah, no to scarves! I'm also absolutely sure that not all scarves were made of expensive silk. A woolly scarf is just as good and doesn't chafe your neck at all. I've been using such scarves all my life in various kinds of winter activities (like skiing) and I've never had any problems with chafing.

But leader streamers would be a realistic addition.

I'd also like to see the option to equip all the aircraft with flares. They were used a lot in real life.

Too bad you don't like the idea, thought it would be good eye candy and also would be handy for any movies or screenshots people would make.

Come on, grow up, man! We're not in Hollywood - there's a war going on!

Tell that to the Great Waldo Pepper Just look at that dashing scarf

Ok. I guess old Robert can pull it off nicely.

EDIT:: As a part 2 I always wanted a Dr.1 skin painted like the German Ace's craft at the end of the movie.
Don't suppose you have a picture of that? Tried once and came up blank.
That will be a fun winter day project.

This one mate?

You the man!
I just went and looked and was skunked again.
Thanks!

Got more pics now

I see that...nice!
Going to save them to my folder with my other skins.
Maybe a bit beyond my skill level but I will see what I can do.
Not only is the skin bad a$$ the movies ending made quite an impression on a young WW1 aviation fan's mind.

I will gladly use that skin!, waiting for it.

Did anyone notice the plane with the British markings is Thomas Morse Scout and not a Camel?

Beard

Well, it may interest you, that our intelligence found out, that this man is not a fighter pilot,
but an actor. His real name is Robert Redford (or maybe even that is a fake, cause it sounds good?).
In this movie, this man is pretending he could fly even better than Ernst Udet - which is nothing
but Hollywood-style bragging. These actors often can be glad, when they are able to eat spaghetti
without getting ketchup on their suede shoes.


[I confess, I actually like Redford and most of his films (never seen the "Great Waldo Pepper" though yet.]

It may be quite a wait my friend! My skinning skills are weak at best.

And yes BB - the one on the lower left does look like a Camel but, as you say, the photo is quite grainy.

Waldo Pepper is THE PROBLEM. I've blamed that movie for years for a lot of the popular myths.

I don't know that "Waldo Pepper" should be blamed for creating the myths. I'm sure most of them started while the war was still being fought...propaganda, you knnow. You'd undoubtedly be correct in assigning it at least partial, if not primary, responsibility for introducing another generation to them, however.

I do know. I've been fighting them for decades because of that movie. It didn't invent the silk scarf myths, obviously--that was largely 1920s barnstorming--but that movie really brought it to the masses.

Ok, then. Waldo Pepper created all the inaccurate legends of WWI aviation except the silk scarf. None existed before that movie.

vonBaur, let's please keep our discussion on an intellectual level and not degrade into further sarcasm. I don't mind if you disagree with what I wrote, but you should disagree with what I actually DID write.

If you re-read my posts, (you should see) I neither claimed nor insinuated that movie "created" the myths and that none existed before it. You just mistakenly think I did. My original point, which you missed, is that based on nearly four decades of personal observation, Waldo Pepper greatly influenced/influences the way people think about WW1, so much so that it has been a real problem as regards historical accuracy. More so than even The Blue Max. This thread is proof. Do you see any mention of barnstorming in here, besides mine--or the movie Waldo Pepper? The movie continuously rears its ugly head.

1920s barnstorming is over. Its misinformation is not a current problem, although perhaps a low-rent version does live on via various airshows. But Waldo Pepper is still around and still on TV--and now DVD. It still actively seeds misinformation, although I concede its impact has lessened due to there being hundreds of television channels these days, rather than three.

Well, movies hardly ever represented the historical truth too well - such film are yet to be made.
These movie, the scarfs and all the misbeliefs and myths will remain for a long time,
and maybe only slowly corrected out by more accurate movies, and by the many accurately
researched books we have now available.
I guess when "The Great Waldo Pepper" was made, they didn't have that much info easily
available, and then Hollywood never even cared much in those days, if it was.

A good example is the film "Von Richthofen & Brown" - that whole film is one big mistake;
hardly anything fits with history there.
When you see the close-up of von Richthofen firing, then you can see his guns don't even
have feed-belts! The "Red Baron" may have been a great fighter pilot, but a wizzard?

What's REALLY annoying are the inaccuracies in the more modern films "Flyboys" and "Der rote Baron".
Both show a whole lot of good-looking, well-made stuff and scenes, and one can see that they did
SOME research at least.
But why, oh why, did they not take the chance and ask some of the WW1 historians for advice,
to get it even much better? I guess those chaps wouldn't even charge too much, if they could
only make sure that everything is shown historically correct.

Watch BBC's Wings. The most accurate film/show/series I've seen so far. Not necessarily from the effects etc. but from the troubles, sounds, engines, problems, dirty faces, piloting, landings etc.
Second to that IMO Aces High.

It's not only the niche field of WW1 aviation knowledge that suffers from the misinformation spread by movies. There are very few historical movies in existence whose content would pass an examination by a professional historian.

It's not a problem if you don't know the facts. But the more you know, the more you become annoyed by the mistakes of the film makers, intentional or not.

Yes to Wings... I've had the series 1 and 2 for years and always enjoyable

Good point, Hasse! How blessed was I, when I didn't know any better -
in the early seventies I found "Richthofen and Brown" amazing!
Mmuahahahahaaa!!!

That's what you "actually DID write."

Breakdown:
"Waldo Pepper is THE PROBLEM."
"The" being a definitive article, indicating only one and not one among many or even chief among many and lacking any clarifier (THE MAIN PROBLEM) shows that you hold it solely responsible. Not much room for interpretation there.

"I've blamed that movie for years for a lot of the popular myths."
How can that be taken any way other than...well, you blame the myths on the movie? You didn't say perpetuating the myths or bringing them to the masses. You said you blame the myths on the movie. When I suggested that it simply exposed a new generation to those misconceptions you became hostile/defensive. I believe there are only two ways to deal with that kind of unreasoning behavior...silence or sarcasm. I chose not to remain silent.

1920's barnstorming is indeed over. It was ended largely by government regulation, but also by a newer breed of pilot. One who'd never had the pressure of having someone shooting at him while he was trying to keep his machine in the air and, therefore, for whom the act of flying was thrill enough. Aviators "grew up". And grew cautious. There were other reasons too, I'm sure. But those were likely the biggest.

The movie is a sore spot for you, obviously, though I'm not entirely sure why. Don't get me wrong, I understand your irritation as a WWI aviation enthusiast and historian at what you see as a gross misrepresentation of that subject. But maybe you should watch it again. I admit that I haven't seen it in its entirety (and not many snippets, for that matter) since it first came out that forty-some years ago. But as I recall, not one scene took place in the Great War. In fact, the entire movie was set in the United States well after the war was over. And the star...the great Waldo Pepper, himself...was too young, it turned out, to have served. He was a conman in a cockpit. A liar. Making up whatever lie he felt could get him a few dollars, a free dinner or the temporary affection of a beautiful girl. The next time someone cites crap from that film as "this is what it was like to fly in WWI" you might want to lead with that little tidbit.

As for Hollywood and historical accuracy...well, most people worth worrying about know that fire and water mix better than those two. "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" started with the words "Most of what follows is true". From other things I've since read maybe five or six situations depicted are based on actual, reasonably verifiable facts. To use Tinsel-Town's standards, they could have put the "Based on actual facts" label on "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter". After all, there was a President of the United States named Abraham Lincoln. Just watch the movies, or don't, and enjoy the show. Personally, I was surprised at some of the things "Flyboys" got right. Like Whiskey, although he was older than the real Whiskey. Soda was probably cut from the film because the director figured nobody would buy it, even though it's true. And when the commander read the letter at Cassidy's funeral I nearly fell out of my seat.

Now if you want a good movie about the Lafeyette Escadrille I recommend the 1958 film of that title. Not significantly better, historically, but at least they used the names of the actual pilots. There was also this tall actor in one of his early bit roles. Some guy by the name of Eastwood. Maybe you've heard of him. And the Chinese guy was a riot..."Wake up, American bums. Oh, say can you see, by dawn early light?" Oh, and no CGI planes.

And with that I will choose, on the subject of Waldo Pepper in this context, silence.


**edited for spelling...specifically for a missing "n" in the word "And" (stupid new keyboard's stiff keys}**

Saw that all the way through for the first time a couple of years ago online.
Wow. It was almost painful to watch. Quite cringe worthy.
For any Devildogs out there it was like watching "Heartbreak Ridge". Ouch!

Hi, vonBaur,

I'm well aware of what I wrote—most of which you’ve ignored—and in posts #4040434 and #4041489 I further explained what I meant. For instance, I wrote: "It [Waldo Pepper] didn't invent the silk scarf myths, obviously--that was largely 1920s barnstorming--but that movie really brought it to the masses." Did you miss that point, or just ignore it? It has to be one or the other because your reply to that post was, "Ok, then. Waldo Pepper created all the inaccurate legends of WWI aviation except the silk scarf. None existed before that movie." Seems to me we agree that Waldo Pepper didn't create myths and what you are really doing is nitpicking the semantics of part of my original post #4040051.

JM: "I've blamed that movie for years for a lot of the popular myths."
VB: "How can that be taken any way other than...well, you blame the myths on the movie?"

Again, did you miss "a lot" or just ignore it? Again, it has to be one or the other.

"A lot" does not mean "all." You didn’t type “all” but you must have meant “all” when you typed “the myths” because, using your yardstick in your last post #4041999, the "the" in “the myths” is a definitive article, indicating all and not one among many or even chief among many and lacking any clarifier (e.g., “a lot of the myths,” similar to what I’ve typed all along) shows that you erroneously believe or are intentionally misrepresenting that I believe Waldo Pepper created “all” myths. Not much room for interpretation there. Other than you are wrong, because I neither said nor implied “all,” ever. That is your invention, and you are taking me to task for your invention. Regardless, yes, as I already stated, I blame that movie for a lot of the popular myths, silk scarves being among them. Waldo Pepper didn't invent that myth but certainly introduced it to many with whom I have interacted. This based on decades of personal observation. The only way you can debate this personal observation is to call me a liar.

When I posted here initially "I've blamed that movie for years for a lot of the popular myths," I gave people credit that they would understand what I wrote and not parse it into "Waldo Pepper created all the inaccurate legends of WWI aviation except the silk scarf. None existed before that movie." You turned "a lot" into "all" and insinuated I believe the move was the genesis of “all inaccurate legends” and then took me to task for your misquoting. Do you have the character and class to admit you inflated what I wrote and are now just quibbling?

Still, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, to help you and possibly a few others understand the point of what I meant—although it seems as if everyone else already does—I'll modify the first sentence of my initial post from "Waldo Pepper is THE PROBLEM" into "Waldo Pepper is ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS." I've already explained this a few times above but hopefully this modification it will help you understand that I don't think Waldo Pepper "created all" the WW1 myths but that I do think it popularized/propagated some of them. Furthermore, I don't think Waldo Pepper "created all" the WW1 myths but I do think it popularized/propagated some of them, and although while Waldo Pepper popularized/propagated some of the WW1 myths I don't think it "created all" of them, even though it did popularize/propagate some of them without creating all of them.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Jim

And also in the spirit of the holiday I will re-enter this enough to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your statement as revised. And I will admit that my use of the "all...except the silk scarf" remark was over the top (although that is a hallmark of sarcasm).

Hopefully now we can end this with a virtual handshake?

Indeed! I accept your virtual handshake and offer one in return.