What do you think of this?

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12881-discussion-about-bos-devs/

From Loft:



Most in this situation, I was struck by the community itself. Diy create all sorts, why not my question. But instead of that would be culturally correct or ask for support if break this set of wires we heard rudeness, criminal charges, Op irerihonsky and generally irresponsible behavior. This unfortunately characterizes this community as disgusting and generally of little interest to the developer. You have shown yourself to the worst possible sides. So please do not surprise anyone change our relationship to you as users. You do not deserve adequate developers, and I regret the time spent by our team to try to make a game for you. You deserve oblivion genre and low quality products.

Oh that Loft, he's such a cooky fellow!

Also I hope he never tries to make another flight sim. It will be better for everyone that way.

WOW!. Not really surprised because I've found 777 customer relations to be abit off in the past.

As someone who really was interested in the sim when first announced I was eventually put off as it seemed from a single player POV they never really listened to what the players actually wanted. Offline campiagn with immersive rpg elements I feel really should have been a priority. OBD with Wings Over Flanders Field really shows the way on how to create a superb single player sim. Some of the design decisions like unlocks for instance is another aspect that really took me back as I don't know anyone who really likes that in any game. I honestly feel esp after the release of CLOD they should have been aiming for a sim that breaks new ground in immersion and campaign play and have developed a sim that stood head and shoulders above any previous WW2 simulation.

Hahaha...it's all your fault community!

These tidbits are more fun than the game itself.

Now, if loki was being truly even-handed, he would show where Loft apologized for his remarks.

Yes, because so many other software publishers are lining up to create flight sims. Oh, wait...

Right, apologize for lambasting the community multiple times for reacting to things they didn't want and blame them for the failure of their product and all is well.

No one is buying this BS defense, man.

The arrogance is just unbelievable...
They did not deserve the 100 bucks they got from this disgusting customer/community member.
I am so done with them...

I'm not really sure how to react to this. As far as I'm concerned, I'm in the market for a good flight sim. I could not care less if the devs were polite or a-holes, as long as the product was good and they delivered. Their moral compass is their problem. However, as a member of the "community," I must admit that I agree that the general atmosphere has become hostile as of late. Sure, there is blame to be had on both sides, but really, if nobody develops flight sims anymore, it is the community that is on the losing side, not the devs who can move on and make different games.

In other words, we should support the flight sim developer in general no matter what? If im going to support something just for the sake of it, the minimum requirement i have is that i even slightly like the devs. As off now i have zero respect for them due to their public nuclear meltdowns on a regular basis. They are not acting like developers they are acting like a flight sim know it all forum member who want everyone to play the game the way they do because thats the only right way. They have no business being in the development end of a flight sim.

Maby Oleg could host a work shop on the do`s and dont`s. No.1 in my book, DO NOT argue with forum members in public, especially not individual members (Jason anyone?) Its extremely unprofessional.

Largely irrelevant...for obvious reasons....this was not an isolated outburst but the culmination (for the moment) of a pattern of behavior and actions showing open contempt for their customers....and everyone saw this "apology" for what it was......a politically correct fig leaf that could not disguise the fact that 1C had a number of developers on this project who are contemptuous of their core market that provided early access funding and if they could......would kick that market to the curb...in favor of a more pliable, and less demanding market of XP seeking "gamers"

This guy is a Strelnikov...and he is driving...or is he merely riding?...his Red Express

.....into Oblivion

Lets keep a couple of things in mind here:

1. The team that is bringing you BoS is very small (about 2 dozen total) and they started out as a bunch of flight simmers who took it to the next level. There is no PR department or even a PR professional, just a bunch of simmers trying to make a go of letting our hobby continue into the future.

2. This specific dust up was about the Freetrak hack no longer being updated by the freetrak hackers and being broken with the latest update to Trakir. The Russian side of the forum went full bore nuclear. Loft received death threats and threats of violence to his family. How long would you last before you pushed back?


This is it guys, the last prop driven combat flight sim that is going to be made for a very long time. Why? Well who the hell would be stupid enough to spend their life giving this community anything? Not me. Look at some of the post here that attack the developers for their country of origin! If this kind of vitrol were heaped on Americans for being American the response would be tenfold. I don't think a single anti Jason post has attacked his citizenship or blamed any decision he has made, or post he has made on that fact. To do so would be idiotic. Yet how many anti Russian attacks do we see here? One of the things I used to like about this community was that it seemed more mature, more reasoned and reasonable than other gaming communities. Not any more. Give me the teenyboppers any day.

ps If the worst thing about this sim is the unlocks, and it is, then this is one hellofa sim!!!

I am not so sure about the comment about this being the last prop driven combat sim... especially after the gap that has been left by this one.

For me the deal breaker was a combination of the following:

X grinding/power ups/ unlocks. In addition to them being bad in a sim like this, oftentimes the system does not work properly - in fact apparently is has issues again this morning, many reporting over on the BOS and Steam forums their progress is not being awarded this morning.

Graphics Presets - used to have advanced graphics options early on in the EA, they decided to take that away and lock them into 4 preset values - their reasoning, we want you to see the game as we want you to see it. A PC game in 2014 that offers no ability to customize graphics options, just mind boggling to me. Not to mention how this broke triple monitor support for the guys that have that.

Singer Player - QMB and Campaign - nothing but a power up grinding XP fest, unlock airplanes, unlock mods, unlock airfields even. No role playing , progression through a career, etc. ( heck even just a career similar to ROF has would have been way better). Imho, no depth whatsoever for single player for me.

Campaign Difficulty Customization - None, you will either fly Normal or Expert - want unlimited weapons while you learn? Ain't going to happen, sorry, you will play the campaign as we envision the campaign to be played, not how you would like to play it.

Lastly, the attitude toward the customers that I have seen displayed on their forums over the last several weeks, especially after the release of the Campaign/Single Player system to us Early Access users. And the subsequent damage control mode they went into, and posts I have seen by some of their " dedicated" on other forums. More than anything, I found it to be a very sad situation. These events just flat left a very bad taste in my mouth for BOS.

Most of my gaming time comes during the winter months, and I have plenty to keep my busy and having a blast with :
Il2 1946 4.12.2 and HSFX7 Mod ( DCG USN Campaign).
TF Cliffs of Dover ( some great single player campaigns out there now). - and the upcoming TF5 is looking awesome, new map/theatre, new planes, etc.
DCS ( multiple modules).
And to a little extent ROF if I can squeeze in the time.

I had very high hopes for BOS all throughout the Early Access period, and have found myself very disappointed now with that offering.

A " continuation of the legendary IL-2 Sturmovik series"? Imho, not even close.

Mike,

Though I have some sympathy for your point of view (the requirement for civility and the desire to see this genre limp into the future --- flying like the old days pre-2005 seems beyond fantasy at this point)

I disagree that this group deserves our support let alone sympathy at this point. They've had plenty of models out there with which to formulate their approach to this market and customer relations...Oleg anyone?

The references to Russian authoritarianism when it comes to some of the Dev's responses to legitimate inquiries and concerns about the product by the community are earned....not just flippantly thrown out. I might add that these references to authoritarianism were not present with Oleg (or if they were, they were there with affection and irony)...also Russian...so your theory that there is a certain anti-Russian jingoism here falls flat.

This has not been a nuclear explosion (coming about suddenly and catastrophically without warning)

Rather like the videos..it's been like watching a slow train wreck...there have been numerous warnings given all along the way...starting out quite civil...and only becoming shrill when it appeared that not only did they not "hear"...they appeared not even to be listening....note the distinction...this is unlike prior Dev crews going back to COD and before; that at least noted concerns/criticisms and APPEARED to take an active engagement in addressing them.

The reaction you are seeing here can be likened to the old maxim in physics

For every reaction....there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This sim/game could make it....but not with the current Dev's attitude of our way or the highway in the face of persistent and legitimate criticism concerning widely acknowledged problems with the game when viewed through the lens of what came before them and how they have consciously strove to capitalize on the "IL-2 Brand".

Well said, Don.

For me, and I would suspect many, many others these are the two biggies:



I have DCS, RoF, WOFF, and of course the older IL-2's including CloD running smoothly between 45 to 55 fps (or better) on my system. BoS was the same until they eliminated Custom Graphics settings. Now BoS is a stuttering mess for me on its lowest graphics settings.

1CGS built some nice planes and graphics overall, but fell on their face in turning those into a playable game. I hope they turn it around, but why would folks be happy with something that is unplayable and/or uninteresting for many single players? It should be heralded as a success just because it has prop driven planes and is set in WWII even if you have no interest in playing it (or can't play it because it won't run smoothly)?

A great game grabs you and makes you stay up too late at night. The advice of those who seem to like BoS is that we should just buck up and choke it down...huh? There have been other WWII flight sims that have bombed in the past, and I'm afraid BoS is heading down that path. And any potential future developer of flight sims watching this fiasco won't be blaming the community for what has happened.

The 400 lbs gorilla in the room is that we all know that a graphically updated version of IL-2 1946 would have been a smashing success, but instead we got this avant garde vision of a game that almost no one can really explain.

so the devs don't deserve our support or sympathy? Death threats, threats of violence against their families, they are getting what they deserve. Wow, just....wow.

Who on earth said that? How does that question follow from a discussion of game elements we find to be poorly designed?

Yes, some have tried and sentenced to death BoS and the dev for not fitting their principles and ideal vision of what a combat flight simulation should be and how a perfect dev should behave, definitely.

Some prefer hanging on dreams than on reality... that's life.

Ghost, I did not say "support the flight sim dev no matter what." I am saying support them if they make a good product. If I am too busy immersed in the flight sim, I don't care if they have public meltdowns because they can't take criticisms from rivet-counters or if they react to stupid threats over a simple set of code designed to simulate combat flight in a WWII setting.

Like I said, there's blame to be had on both sides and we rarely see a good portion of the entire story so such "meltdowns" are just the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather vote with my wallet and let the product guide my purchases.

I do echo what mike1997 said..... I like this community (SimHQ) for the maturity of the members, and while I see this on the other sub-forums, the DCS and IL2BoS sub-communities do leave a bit to be desired. Sure, we'd like a good game, tweaked to our specific way of playing, but just because the devs chose to go a different path doesn't mean they deserve all the vitriol I've seen flung about.

I find Don/DBurnette's post a bit ironic though. He talks about deal breakers, yet lists Cliffs of Dover as one of the games he is having a blast with. What that tells me is that even broken things can be fixed in time. If all we're complaining about is XP/grinding, graphic and difficulty presets, and SP progression, then I have high hopes for BoS. Are the aircraft FMs wrong? Do the guns seem overpowered or are not exhibiting the behavior or correct ammo count? Is take-offs/landings too easy/difficult? These are the things I look for in a sim. Sure, it'll be nice if I can tweak the graphics settings a bit, but really, will you get up and walk away simply because you are "pre-set" to 4x MSAA and you want 8x MSAA? Or because the sun is too yellow? If these things bother you more than the enemy fighters bearing down on you, maybe you're in the wrong sim. I would say, however, that they seriously dropped the ball on no tri-screen support.

[ps -- when I say "you," I'm not referring to Don/DBurnette in particular but rather to the people who voice such complaints]

Where in the world did that come from??

Seriously...