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#4033509 - 11/08/14 03:09 PM Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident  
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KRT_Bong Offline
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...atal-crash.html

Maybe they need to redesign the configuration control so this can't happen in the future. Sad, the realization of what he did must have been awful.


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#4033537 - 11/08/14 04:32 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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Wow. Terrible to #%&*$# things up like that when the stakes are so high.


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#4033547 - 11/08/14 04:57 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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I'm wondering how such smart people with over a century of aeronautical experience to draw from would design a craft that allows the pilot with one mistaken action to initiate a catastrophic failure.

I may be cynical, but it would seem that Virgin Galactic are awfully keen to lead us to the conclusion it was the pilot's fault and not the aircraft.

#4033549 - 11/08/14 05:01 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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Every aircraft in the world can be destroyed with an easy/mistaken/disoriented pilot action.

Aviation is dangerous, that's why there's a lot of training happening for pilots - and some still believe that it is inadequate.


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#4033551 - 11/08/14 05:08 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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Pielstick Offline
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I should have worded it better - when I said action I mean a single cockpit operation or interaction that results in catastrophic failure.

I find it incredible that there was no interlock or measure to prevent the wings being inadvertantly feathered at the wrong stage of flight given the consequences of it happening would, as we have unfortunately seen, be disastrous.

#4033558 - 11/08/14 05:29 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: Pielstick]  
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
I should have worded it better - when I said action I mean a single cockpit operation or interaction that results in catastrophic failure.

I find it incredible that there was no interlock or measure to prevent the wings being inadvertantly feathered at the wrong stage of flight given the consequences of it happening would, as we have unfortunately seen, be disastrous.



I'm thinking the same thing. For example, It's my understanding that many contemporary aircraft lock out the deployment of landing gear above a certain speed. Why would such a device not be implemented for the feathering feature in this case?


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#4033567 - 11/08/14 05:49 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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There's some talk on an engineering site here, that it had become normal (mal?)practise to unlock the first safety latch, a bit early. This should be in order to let the feathers freewheel a bit, and thereby soften up the vibrations caused by the engine.
Apparantly the length of the SS2 feathers, causes them to interfere a bit with the shockwaves from the rocket exhaust, resulting in severe vibrations.

All info from someone who supposedly knows someone, so should be taken with a grain of salt..


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#4033571 - 11/08/14 06:01 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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Sad to hear.

But as mentioned above, there are many instances in even general aviation where operating a single lever during the wrong phase of flight can bring on disaster.


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#4033729 - 11/09/14 04:31 AM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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The further linked article with the surviving pilot's
father says the unlocking wasn't normally enough to
deploy the wings, that it required a second switch
to be engaged, but the NTSB is saying the early unlocking
was enough for the forces at that point in the flight
to pull the wings open without the aid of the second switch.

#4033878 - 11/09/14 06:30 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: Pielstick]  
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DrZebra Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
I'm wondering how such smart people with over a century of aeronautical experience to draw from would design a craft that allows the pilot with one mistaken action to initiate a catastrophic failure.

I may be cynical, but it would seem that Virgin Galactic are awfully keen to lead us to the conclusion it was the pilot's fault and not the aircraft.


from whats know now, I´d rather say "the prodedures fault".. I can´t imagine the pilots of such a project not asking the engineers about early "unlocking" to feather engine vibrations... but apparently no thought through real procedure was made, so it was a bit of a grey area in exactly that area that makes the craft work, but also very vulnerable...

I´m pretty sure behind the "pilot fault" verdict are actually a lot more people that had their share of this tragic accident. Still I hope they can recover and go on..

Last edited by DrZebra; 11/09/14 06:32 PM.
#4033951 - 11/09/14 10:57 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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I just reminds me a lot of the crash of the RAF Chinook ZD576 in 1994 that was blamed on the pilots in order to protect various parties and interests. A lot of people had to fight very hard and long to clear the pilots' names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

#4034904 - 11/12/14 03:05 AM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: Pielstick]  
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
I just reminds me a lot of the crash of the RAF Chinook ZD576 in 1994 that was blamed on the pilots in order to protect various parties and interests. A lot of people had to fight very hard and long to clear the pilots' names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash


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#4035000 - 11/12/14 01:16 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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#4035063 - 11/12/14 03:31 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: Pielstick]  
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
I just reminds me a lot of the crash of the RAF Chinook ZD576 in 1994 that was blamed on the pilots in order to protect various parties and interests. A lot of people had to fight very hard and long to clear the pilots' names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash


Not sure I agree with your POV. They were flying VFR. No sign of engine problems. We'll never know for sure, but pilot error seems the problem.


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#4035100 - 11/12/14 05:06 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Originally Posted By: Pielstick
I just reminds me a lot of the crash of the RAF Chinook ZD576 in 1994 that was blamed on the pilots in order to protect various parties and interests. A lot of people had to fight very hard and long to clear the pilots' names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash


Not sure I agree with your POV. They were flying VFR. No sign of engine problems. We'll never know for sure, but pilot error seems the problem.




Well, read the whole thing. Special Forces pilots NOT known for risk taking. Visibility was inconsistent on the ground.

But... 486 anomalies in just 18% of the engine FADEC coding??? Uncommanded power ups and power downs?!! Though there is no proof, the facts suggest its possible they intended to fly higher, above terrain, and experienced a sudden power down, crashing into terrain. I mean, the code was so bad, they stopped bothering to check the rest of it.

Was it FADEC software that caused it? Or pilot error? I don't think we'll know for sure. But clearly that coding was seriously faulty, compromised beyond reasonable expectations. I'm sure its been re-written to be reliable since that time.

If we make an estimate based on what was examined, its reasonable to conclude the FADEC software likely had in the region of 2400 faulty lines of code... for engines on a HELICOPTER(!!!!). Misbehaving engines are bad enough... but delinquent engines on a helicopter?!?!

We know about auto-rotation as a safety procedure for helicopters. We know its practiced regularly by rotary students. But... it seems as if in real world helicopter accidents that its rare for helis to save themselves by this technique. It seems like any kind of failure on a heli usually leads to a bad crash, often with at least one fatality.

Years ago a pilot told me virtually all aircraft accidents were the result of pilot error. Watching the entire Mayday series gives me the impression that certainly that is common, but that there are still many cases where poor maintenance, and poor design of components is still a factor (though diminishing as we improve aircraft design substantially from the early coffins into the super-safe airliners of today)


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#4035138 - 11/12/14 07:20 PM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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Yes, but the post crash investigation showed no signs of engine problems. I did read the whole thing.


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#4043435 - 11/30/14 04:57 AM Re: Pilot Error to blame in Virgin Galactic Accident [Re: KRT_Bong]  
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