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#4031691 - 11/04/14 07:16 PM Need some advice on shooting down two seaters *SPOILER*  
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OldHat Offline
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Seems like wherever I approach a two seater (below, above, front, side), they make me and my plane into swiss cheese. cuss2


I have my workshop settings on normal for "rear guns".

Is there general tactics that works on all of them that I'm missing or are the tactics plane specific? I'd like to be able to shoot one down without resorting to switching the rear guns to less accurate.

help

EDIT: DON'T READ BEYOND THESE WORDS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW THE TRICK TO SHOOTING DOWN TWO-SEATERS in QC.






I found out while playing in QC that if you stay behind and just below any two-seater from 350-450m and not any closer, you will not get any return fire from the observer. It will take anywhere between 40-55 bullets to knock one out from a formation and potentially causing its engine to fail and spiral down to crash.

Last edited by OldHat; 11/06/14 03:33 PM.
#4031701 - 11/04/14 07:37 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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ArisFuser Offline
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All I can tell you from my experience is attack from close behind and BELOW. Get real close, and climb abruptly to have a shot at their belly ala Albert ball, dive as soon as you gain altitude if you get too close to their flying altitude. NEVER approach at the same altitude or above.

#4031703 - 11/04/14 07:41 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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Low and behind can work. watch out for the rest of the formation which may have an angle shot on you.

Another is to dive in behind the plane, go below it, and then pull nose up to where it will hopefully be for a belly shot.

The arc of fire on the prey is important. Find the blind spot. Take one out in QC and see where the weak spot is.

#4031711 - 11/04/14 08:00 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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OldHat Offline
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Yep, tried it in QC and I'm kindda getting the hang of where to shoot in their belly. It's a bit tough aiming while trying not to stall. Oh yeah, the angle shots from the their buddies is what gets me every time.

I'll probably spend some more time in QC before I jump back into my campaign.

#4031714 - 11/04/14 08:06 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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77_Scout Offline
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You can try setting rear guns to "less accurate" and see how you like it. Lots of people are using "less accurate" for both front and rear guns, and finding it a better experience. I like it because in my mind it better replicates the inaccuracies of aerial shooting caused by buffeting, blasting wind, oily goggles etc., all of which the game doesn't really inflict upon us. It also gives longer more drawn-out dogfights, with less kills and more inconclusive encounters. From a realism perspective, I find that to be a good thing.

#4031723 - 11/04/14 08:13 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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OldHat Offline
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I'm just waiting until I get on the verge of frustration and then explode

...have a beer and submit to my failure, then make the switch.

#4031728 - 11/04/14 08:17 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

If it is a lone two-seater then slightly behind and directly below makes for an ideal attack on a B/R bus. It takes a while to sneak up into this position but it works nearly every time. You can try the same trick on the trailing bus in a formation but make it a quick hit and run or you will get shredded as soon as the other gunners in the flight wake up to the fact that you are there. Attacking two-seaters, IMHO, is about setting yourself up for the attack and to that end here is one to try. Since most of the B/R buses have the gunners behind the pilots an attack from the forward quarters works quite fine when going at a formation. Get well ahead, above, and slightly to one side or the other of the lead bus. Turn and dive in so that your attack run has you slightly below the nose of the lead ship and at either the 11:00 or 1:00 position as this will place the wings of all the planes in the typical V formation in between you and the gunners. And, as you are not directly in front of any of the planes the front guns are not bearing on you either. Begin firing from about 200 yards out and place as many short bursts as you can into the engine and cockpit of the lead bus before breaking off, turning back in the same direction as the formation and diving slightly as you do so to build speed. If you've done it right you will continue to block the gunners as you make your escape and climb back up to repeat the trick. Keep in mind, the sweet spot is rather narrow from top to bottom so until you have good distance between you and the formation you really need to watch that you stay in it. Now, with all this being said, if the formation breaks up to open the field of view and fire for the gunners all bets are off and you need to get the hell out of Dodge and reassess the situation. However, it has been my experience in both OFF and WOFF that the formations tend to hang together quite tightly and won't switch it up much until two or more of the planes in the formation are knocked out.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4031735 - 11/04/14 08:27 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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OldHat Offline
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Very nicely detailed advice, Louvert. I'll try to imagine it in my mind, but if you have a bit of time on your hands, and feeling generous, I'd greatly appreciate a short training video (or similar) of what you wrote as I'm more of a visual learner rather than a linguistic one.

#4031748 - 11/04/14 08:50 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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If you are in a 2 seater with an observer in the rear, just park under their nose, a little ahead! I've got 3 Aviatiks in a morane that way smile

#4031774 - 11/04/14 09:44 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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Originally Posted By: OldHat
Very nicely detailed advice, Louvert. I'll try to imagine it in my mind, but if you have a bit of time on your hands, and feeling generous, I'd greatly appreciate a short training video (or similar) of what you wrote as I'm more of a visual learner rather than a linguistic one.


OldHat, I've just put a chart together that, hopefully, should help you out.




.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4032024 - 11/05/14 02:05 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

My schedule changed and I did not have to leave as early this AM as I was originally planning which gave me time to set up the previously described attack in a QC. I flew a Camel against three DFWs and snapped some screenies at critical points in the exercise, (would have shot a video but my FRAPS vid capture is not working at the moment, one more item to add to my list of things to do).

So here we go.



In position to begin the attack. You can see the formation about 1,200 yards back over my port side elevator. I should note that when I initiate this plan in the Camel I usually position myself to starboard of the formation and perform a diving turn to port, crossing in front of the formation. It just seems to work better this way with this particular kite.



Diving turn completed and now finding the groove. At this point I am making minor adjustments as the formation appears to be drifting slowly towards my port side.



Lined up and beginning to fire short bursts into the lead plane. Note that I am slightly below the formation and none of the gunners can get a line on me.



Breaking off the attack by using the Camel's favoured turn to starboard. I am showing off a bit here and I don't recommend getting quite this close unless you've done this trick a few times. None-the-less, the position I am in at this point is excellent and not a single shot was fired from any of the three EA. And bonus, the lead bus is trailing a wisp of whitish vapour which means he losing petrol and/or coolant, either way he's in a tough spot.



Making good my escape. Note that the formation has not spread apart or broken up in the least, this is generally the case. Also, still no shots fired as none of the gunners can get a clear line of sight on my kite.



Climbing back up into position to try the entire trick again. You can do this repeatedly as long as the odds favour you, (i.e. the formation hangs together, they are not joined by a group of enemy scouts, your kite is still running fine, etc.).


There you have it Gents. Give it a go in QC and get the feel of it. It works quite well.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4032026 - 11/05/14 02:07 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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JimAttrill Offline
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Actually I need advice on how to shoot ANYTHING down sigh


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#4032067 - 11/05/14 03:11 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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OldHat Offline
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Louvert, those are great pics and along with your diagram, clearly explains the tactic. I will live in QC for a while until I can consistently shoot AT LEAST ONE two-seater down.

At that point, I can re-join my campaign and not be too afraid take on two-seaters in a smart way.

#4032070 - 11/05/14 03:15 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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Nietzsche Offline
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On static targets (like Bombers) I often use the Gunsight-View with 3 clicks Zoom (all guns normal). You can see the Tracers very well this way. When pursuing a Fighter, I stay in the normal Cocpit-View and only zoom 1-2 clicks, when I'm acually firing. You can initially fire a few "training-rounds", aiming at a cloud of your choice with and without your favored zoom, to see, where the Tracers go.
The "3 clicks Zoom Gunsight Mode" is good for nearly 400 meters.
When downing a Bomber, try to stay behind it at all costs. I've already been shot down 3x by Bombers, that fell from the Sky like a Rock. Nose down, with a perfect field of view for the Rear-Gunner. One even shot me down, while he was burning like a Comet and with torn off Wings eek2

#4032205 - 11/05/14 07:35 PM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted By: RAF_Louvert
.
Since most of the B/R buses have the gunners behind the pilots an attack from the forward quarters works quite fine when going at a formation.

My few victories over two-seaters used this very tactic. Keep the enemy aircraft between you and the rear seat gunner. If you can't see him, he can't get a clear shot at you. But if you can see him...


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
#4061925 - 01/10/15 02:22 AM Re: Need some advice on shooting down two seaters [Re: OldHat]  
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HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
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I popped over here to have a look after a referral from another thread.

You know, Lou's tactic makes sense and all in one respect, but I'm wondering why the EA just stayed in formation and didn't say "Hey! This dumbkoff is charging right at me, if I just dip my nose a bit I can send a stream of hot lead to meet him! As well, if I made a tight turn that close to the formation, it would seem I'd lose enough speed that they would overtake me by a consderable amount. Of course, banking away increases the separation as well... And it DID work! Just thinking this through.

But is it realistic to say that it really that tough to see a fellow (relatively) slowly flying past you on the same heading, then turn to come right at you, and it seems they just held course and formation and let you take your shots, again, as though they didn't see you coming. Or didn't these birds have front facing guns as well as the back seat gunner? I may be completely ignorant, apologies if I have posed a stupid thing. But I'm trying to learn as well before my Sgt. Pantswetter does the old "spin, crash and burn" thing...

Thanks,

Tom


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