All this discussion is useful information and much of it I have heard before. I have come to the conclusion that the best recovery is not to enter into a nose high stall in the first place.

For those with a force feedback stick this is easier to recognize because your stick shakes warning your you are approaching stall, so get the nose down quick!!

For those who do not have FFB, keep a close eye on your air speed as an indicator. For each aircraft a quick QC session will tell you at what speed the stall will occur.

This is the only sure advice I can offer. tail low stall recover is a hit and miss process. Sometimes I can get out of it and sometimes I can't using the same recovery techniques.

It's a mute point whether the sim flight model is the same as RL.

Best Regards to all!

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The very tip I gave you on the subject two years ago Sir: Tail down spin recovery
It always warms me old heart when folks actually learn something useful from my oft times tedious advice.

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Different game/sim, but the worst spins I've been in were early IL2 days in a P-39. The inverted ones were the worst!

RC planes have a much greater power/weight ratio than real airplanes and thus your example is about as useful as a fan on a model. But besides that, this says it all: "While the tail first spin experienced in WOFF is rather exaggerated from those in RL..." Change "rather" to "greatly" and I'll agree with that. And unless something comes off the airplane or changes location--i.e., cargo shift--the center of gravity does not change in a spin. The center of mass is the center of mass; it is the result of other things changing. Nothing changed on that Camel in the video. We heard "ripping", but from where? Bullets hit the plane, but where? And how would either affect a spin? Any answer to those and how they would affect a spin is 100% conjecture.

Either way, "exaggerated" means what is seen in the video is not a depiction of reality. I'm not criticizing the FM but what is in that video is WAY beyond flat spin. Here's a flat spin--inverted to boot:



Note the nose is not pointing nearly vertical above the horizon.

Here's another "tail spin." Note how the nose is not pointed up in the sky:

Agreed Jim, CG is more or less a constant as regards the airframe, CL is the variable and is what I meant. I should have noted the CL wound up significantly ahead of the CG rather than the other way round.

Also, tail spins and flat spins are two different things. Nose high, tail low = flat spin. Nose low, tail high = tail spin.

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I wanted to elaborate more on my point last night but I had a meeting to get to and returned late. Wide awake now, coffee good, and a few minutes to spare, so....

Jim, I further agree that the tail first spin in discussion is an exaggeration and I guess my only real point in this is that such a spin is aerodynamically possible, however improbable it may be. I disagree about the model hung in the air stream proving nothing. This method of testing has been used since the beginning of aircraft design and the only thing I was attempting to prove was that an airplane in the attitude shown in the video will autorotate around a vertical axis when in an air stream coming up from underneath, (mimicking the fall). It does. I am also aware that RC planes have different flight characteristics from full-sized planes and again my only point in mentioning the incident was to show that such a spin is aerodynamically possible.

All this being said, and with additional consideration on my part, I concede that such a spin as shown in Rick's video is highly improbable. And since the initial consideration was weather or not such a spin in WOFF is realistic I agree with the majority that it is not realistic, (but not impossible).


And Robert, don't be bowing down to me Sir as in all likelihood I was given the same piece of advice when I first started flying Red Baron many years back. The DH2 in that sim had a killer spin as well.

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Lou, it was just a little praise as historically, from an OFF/WOFF perspective you are in my opinion s dedicated master of the Camel and I value your comments with respect to it. Unfortunately I did not make it clear in the post I was speaking in this vain.

Best Regards;

I watched your video thinking, the FM has an interesting non-recoverable "feature." I'd never read about spins with such severe tail low attitudes. To be honest, I think the FM is missing in this corner of the envelope. I just don't see how the nose didn't drop at all. Have you tried to replicate this behavior in RoF?

It's certainly not addressed in Aerodynamics For Naval Aviators. I no longer have my copy of Kershner's Basic Aerobatic Manual, but don't recall anything like that.

Different airplanes have different "departure" or "post stall gyration" characteristics. These may or may not result in a fully developed spin. The F-16 has a mode where the nose oscillates above the horizon and another where it stays below the horizon. Spins were only flown in the F-16 by test pilots. If a non-test pilot departed controlled flight, the recovery was/is an emergency procedure requiring a safety report. IIRC F-4 departures that develop into a flat spin (the nose was parked near the horizon) tended to be non-recoverable. Two IPs in my RTU squadron had to eject for that reason. I'm 25 years removed from RL fighters, and recognize that swept wing jets and straight wing props will behave differently. It is armed with knowledge that I think the Camel is operating out of its envelope.

I suppose "tail spin" is something from the early days of flying but contemporary military trained flyers just say spin. Do narrators still use that expression at airshows?

Cheers

Let me also add that I am in no way suggesting that a computer simulation, especially one that a rube like me can plunk down $60 for and have at, can account for all of real life. So I would like to stress that I am no way indicting the developers for the right or wrongness of the spin, it just looked odd to me, and as I had the presence of mind to hit "record", thought I would inquire about it. I really appreciate the responses, by the way!

Hey Rick, have you been able to duplicate the spin?
I tried in QC freeflight, but couldn't. My hunch is the bullet impacts just before the spin are what i can't duplicate.

No, I haven't flown since Sunday

That sucks, hump day is today....

Probably a good hunch MudWasp. I have seen planes in CFS3 (OFF, WOFF) do these weird "spinning like a top" things, but always it has been when the plane is damaged (and usually badly damaged). I suspect that the physics only goes wonky with certain damage effects in play.