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#4026438 - 10/24/14 03:38 AM Wait... I think I've figured it out...  
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Pizzicato Offline
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"It" being the primary distinction between the two main BoS "camps". Basically, I've been giving some thought to the two very polarized but vocal groups that are currently dominating the conversations around the game. In doing so, I've been looking for a way to cut through the emotional noise and filter the two positions down to their most distilled forms.

Here's what I came up with:

Group 1 sets out to shut down any criticism because they feel that too much vociferous negativity will drive developers away from the genre and kill it for good. Their rationale is "Got to argue the dissenters out of their negativity or they'll kill the genre and we'll never see another decent flight sim!"

Group 2 sets out to attack any positivity because they feel that too much affirmation will convince the developers that they're making the right creative choices when they're actually way off base. Their rationale is "Got to argue the advocates out of their positivity or they'll kill the genre and we'll never see another decent flight sim!"

I appreciate that nothing's ever quite that clear cut, but the theory feels in the ballpark as a broad generalisation. My conclusion is that as much as we frequently seem to be a community at odds with itself, we're actually fighting for more or less the exact same thing.

I don't know that this observation actually changes anything, but it seemed interesting enough to share.

And, erm... yeah. exitstageleft


---------
Pizzicato
#4026449 - 10/24/14 04:19 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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#4026451 - 10/24/14 04:21 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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bisher Offline
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lol, Pizzicato may not be a video game insider, but he did stay at a Holiday Inn last night wink

I kid!

Your theory seems to have some weight


#4026467 - 10/24/14 04:57 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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I don't think your assessment of group 2 is quite right:

Group 2 voices their opinion about a game

Group 1 takes it personally like you just assaulted their firstborn and voices their opinion and attacks the individual. Bearcat is the perfect example by calling people idiots for not being happy with the game.

It's very rare someone starts a thread saying "Having a blast in BOS" and someone from Group 2 calls them an idiot for having a good experience...but the reverse happens all the time.


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#4026479 - 10/24/14 05:17 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
.. It's very rare someone starts a thread saying "Having a blast in BOS" and someone from Group 2 calls them an idiot for having a good experience...but the reverse happens all the time.

While slightly humerous they also add the "hate" and other over-interpreted Words into the posters mouth and this is also the reason why it looks far worse than it usually is. And, as other defenders-of-the-universe reads it they get hooked by the false statement of the previous defender and goes all verbal and all-caps (they read it over and over in the same post and get angry for people repeating themselves or mix the similar statement from others critisism and goes bananas for "they whine repeatedly").

While entertaining at times also sad in the long run as it totally negates any critisism since it will Always be read as "hate" and even the developers will ignore it.

I'm more than convinved these defenders do way more harm to a Product than anyone else and if they'd just let an opinion be an opinion it would never get the exposure they now create.

#4026484 - 10/24/14 05:40 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Force10]  
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Great observation, Pizzicato, and probably pretty close to the truth. I have seen almost no posters who want to see BoS categorically fail. I think there are two very different passionate views on how they want BoS to succeed.

And I've noticed the same thing, Force10:

Poster 1: I hate this game.

Poster 2: You're an idiot. You're a hater, etc, etc, etc.

One insults an inanimate object, the other a human being.

The term "hater" is tossed around way to much IMO. What have you got left to call someone like Hitler? The other dude you just called a "hater" hates a video game!



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#4026486 - 10/24/14 05:54 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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Interesting analysis, Pizzicato, thanks for sharing it.

Two faces of the same coin. And at the bottom of it all, the fear and increasing desperation of a group of gamers, the CF simmers, who in the last decade have become an irrelevant minority in the eyes of a gaming industry which has grown exponentially by chasing other, much more juicy, targets.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that 1C/777 made the right choices ignoring the recent outcry of the "hard core simmers". These are few and detached from the reality of the gaming industry, they live in the past and passionately enjoy weird outdated features of decades old games, that nobody else cares about. Their criticism of a product is not a reliable indicator of larger market acceptance of that product.

If 1C/777 want to thrive they have to innovate and capture this larger market. It seems to me that they have managed it without breaking faith with the fundamentals of the genre (faithful FMs, realistic DMs, historical authenticity), and honestly delivering what they had promised to the early access customers. I wish them success with their endeavors, and I'm looking forward to further developments.

Sign me up for Group 3: old flight simmers who enjoy the game and who are ready to embrace new things yep

#4026500 - 10/24/14 08:14 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: nibbio]  
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Originally Posted By: nibbio
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that 1C/777 made the right choices ignoring the recent outcry of the "hard core simmers". These are few and detached from the reality of the gaming industry, they live in the past and passionately enjoy weird outdated features of decades old games, that nobody else cares about.


Outdated features like "levels" in Donkey Kong and "unlocks" in the AD&D Gold Box series, both from the 1980's...I agree. If you're ready to embrace new things in games, it won't be levels and unlocks rolleyes

Maybe that's it...with the levels and unlocks in BoS I'm getting a huge Donkey Kong vibe hahaha


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#4026510 - 10/24/14 09:05 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: KodiakJac]  
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Originally Posted By: Bucksnort

Outdated features like "levels" in Donkey Kong and "unlocks" in the AD&D Gold Box series, both from the 1980's...I agree. If you're ready to embrace new things in games, it won't be levels and unlocks rolleyes

Maybe that's it...with the levels and unlocks in BoS I get a huge "been there, done that already" feeling hahaha


LOL... well IIRC weapon unlocks were actually introduced in semi-recent wildly successful fps titles like Call of Duty. They are certainly innovative in flight sims, where they have never been used, with the exception of War Thunder, of course. But that's beside the point.

The main innovation IMO is the campaign structure. I still don't know if I like it or not. It's very different from the "beta career" of ROF, that never lived up to my expectations.

The very fact that the BOS campaign is so impersonal in a way makes it strangely attractive.
You don't develop any attachment to unknown wingmen or squadrons, and so you feel free to explore and experience the battle from different points of view, using different aircrafts. It really works for showcasing the beautiful aircraft models to the player. I played some ground attack campaign missions on an IL2 this morning and had much fun. With a different campaign structure I probably would have just ignored the ground attack aircrafts, and focussed only on the fighters.

OTOH you can ignore this possibility and, if you want, just focus on a single aircraft in a single role. IMO however the experience of the player choosing this more focussed approach would be vastly improved if some convincing roleplaying elements were provided, like squadron identification, wingmen names, etc.

In conclusion they still have a long way to go to make the campaign more interesting, but they could be on the right track.

The important thing to note is that they had the courage to change things and try to improve the traditional model of combat flight sim, in order to gain a larger market share and revitalize the genre. If they make it, there will be more competition in this market segment, more creative minds will be set to work on it, and ultimately all CFS fans will profit. If not, well.. too bad. It's not the end of the world. Sooner or later someone else will try, or we will all get old playing the same stale sims of the nineties, modded to death, until oblivion biggrin

Last edited by nibbio; 10/24/14 09:14 AM.
#4026526 - 10/24/14 10:55 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: nibbio]  
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Originally Posted By: nibbio
These are few and detached from the reality of the gaming industry, they live in the past and passionately enjoy weird outdated features of decades old games, that nobody else cares about. Their criticism of a product is not a reliable indicator of larger market acceptance of that product.


Care to elaborate exactly what "weird outdated features" that may be? IMO you are way off in your "psycho analyze" mate!

The thing some of you don't get is that a product can appeal to a broad range of customers, from newbies all the way to the so called "hardcore core simmer" (which I'm not btw) by providing options to enable/disable wanted/unwanted stuff!

For whatever reason BoS devs made the decision to give us no/limited options so it's "their way or the highway" so highway it is for me since I do not agree with their way - it's simple as that. If that means - by some people - I'm "betraying" the genre so be it since I'm not paying for stuff that I don't like!


/KC


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#4026555 - 10/24/14 12:31 PM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: KeyCat]  
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Originally Posted By: KeyCat


For whatever reason BoS devs made the decision to give us no/limited options so it's "their way or the highway" so highway it is for me since I do not agree with their way - it's simple as that.

/KC


And that is the irrefutable empirical difference between this game/simulation and what has preceded it. No other combat flight simulation of any note (market size) has attempted to force its customers into such a straight-jacketed way of playing the game, with no indication that they will change the model. This so far departs from what has preceded it in terms of customization and prospect for expansion that this fact alone can account for a lot of the emotion here.

As has been noted...if this succeeds...then those of us with over a decade of playing customizable "open" non-unlock/grind flight sims realize that it's likely game over. The WT-ification of what were previously very open simulations represents yet another milestone in the decline of the genre.

COD was a disappointment at release not because of what it intended to do but that it could not pull it off (bugs)

BoS is a disappointment at release because it might actually succeed in completely changing the experience of WWII flight simulations in a way that long time players in that genre find unacceptable.

Again as has been said...thanks to TF and COD's revival...the lights have not gone out yet


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#4026599 - 10/24/14 02:07 PM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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I think that pretty much sums it up.

My view on it is this though. Flight sims will not die. There is always going to be a startup who loves the genera and wants to make a new one. Just because one sim does not sell well does not mean others wont. The only thing a BoS failure would do is prevent that specific dev group from a repeat sim in a different theater. And I am completely find with that because I dont want to see another sim similar to BoS. Let it die for it's crimes and in 2-3 years lets see if someone makes another sim the way a sim should be made.

And for everyone who actually likes BoS... well good on you. Keep fighting the good fight. But remember that if you succeed at making BoS a success the next game will be similar with similar mechanics.

#4026603 - 10/24/14 02:20 PM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: KeyCat]  
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Originally Posted By: KeyCat


Care to elaborate exactly what "weird outdated features" that may be? IMO you are way off in your "psycho analyze" mate!



Hmm... let's see, just a couple off the top of my head:

Obscure graphics options: you know how we all perversely love to spend infinite hours chasing obscure graphics options to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of our rigs.
In old style sims it was taken for granted that to have a playable game one had to be proficient with the most arcane settings of his GPU... Not so in BOS, graphics options are extremely simplified and the game is very playable as it is. You and I may think it's (OMG!) the devs forcing on us poor victims their own stalinist version of SSAO, FXAA or whatever, but it's actually a much less intimidating and hassle-free approach from the point of view of a newbie, who wants to fly a plane, not fiddle with irrelevant technical details. The KISS principle always wins.

Clickable cockpits and tedious start-up procedures: let's just say that simulating button-pushing in front of a PC with a keyboard with 103 keys and a 32 buttons programmable HOTAS appeals only to very few select individuals; someone may say such individuals are maybe a little weird yep

Difficulty options: most people have questioned the choice to force players to use only 2 sets of difficulty options for the campaign, normal and expert, as well as of having only servers with expert or normal difficulty. I too was not pleased at the beginning, but then I understood that the goal of the developers is to attract new SP players to MP, and to do so they must provide a SP environment that is the same they will find once they feel ready and finally venture online. A multitude of servers with umpteen combinations of difficulty options would just result in greater player dispersion and sparsely populated servers. Nobody would ever learn the pleasant and joyful art of swimming if we were born with life vests on winkngrin

Unbalanced pilot workload: flying a warplane in real life is hard work, but we do it for fun; the pilot workload must be reasonably accurate to facilitate immersion but not so heavy as to require a degree in mechanical engineering. IMO the CEM in BOS fits the bill quite nicely; it's very forgiving but one can still cook the engine or suffer a perfomance loss if careless.

#4026648 - 10/24/14 03:15 PM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: Pizzicato]  
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Quote:
Difficulty options: most people have questioned the choice to force players to use only 2 sets of difficulty options for the campaign, normal and expert, as well as of having only servers with expert or normal difficulty.


Notice that this restrictions in difficult options end forcing new players fly the SP Campaign - in NORMAL mode - with the same FM/DM of EXPERT mode and not even padlock.

This is not exactly a way to turn the game more accessible for new players.

Well, they can play in "autopilot, 2X" ("official" suggestion). smile

#4026953 - 10/25/14 01:19 AM Re: Wait... I think I've figured it out... [Re: nibbio]  
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Originally Posted By: nibbio


Hmm... let's see, just a couple off the top of my head:

Obscure graphics options: you know how we all perversely love to spend infinite hours chasing obscure graphics options to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of our rigs.
In old style sims it was taken for granted that to have a playable game one had to be proficient with the most arcane settings of his GPU... Not so in BOS, graphics options are extremely simplified and the game is very playable as it is. You and I may think it's (OMG!) the devs forcing on us poor victims their own stalinist version of SSAO, FXAA or whatever, but it's actually a much less intimidating and hassle-free approach from the point of view of a newbie, who wants to fly a plane, not fiddle with irrelevant technical details. The KISS principle always wins.

Clickable cockpits and tedious start-up procedures: let's just say that simulating button-pushing in front of a PC with a keyboard with 103 keys and a 32 buttons programmable HOTAS appeals only to very few select individuals; someone may say such individuals are maybe a little weird yep

Difficulty options: most people have questioned the choice to force players to use only 2 sets of difficulty options for the campaign, normal and expert, as well as of having only servers with expert or normal difficulty. I too was not pleased at the beginning, but then I understood that the goal of the developers is to attract new SP players to MP, and to do so they must provide a SP environment that is the same they will find once they feel ready and finally venture online. A multitude of servers with umpteen combinations of difficulty options would just result in greater player dispersion and sparsely populated servers. Nobody would ever learn the pleasant and joyful art of swimming if we were born with life vests on winkngrin

Unbalanced pilot workload: flying a warplane in real life is hard work, but we do it for fun; the pilot workload must be reasonably accurate to facilitate immersion but not so heavy as to require a degree in mechanical engineering. IMO the CEM in BOS fits the bill quite nicely; it's very forgiving but one can still cook the engine or suffer a perfomance loss if careless.


This should be in the dumbing down of IL2 thread.


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