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#4025792 - 10/22/14 08:39 PM The lesson is ...  
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oldgrognard Offline
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Lifer

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Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
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#4025797 - 10/22/14 08:48 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Peally Offline
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Hell I coulda told you that


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#4025812 - 10/22/14 09:19 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
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China is playing a massive catch up game with their armed forces so there will be plenty of teething problems.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4025818 - 10/22/14 09:29 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Wrecking Crew Offline
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LOL

Here is the new design --



WC

#4025819 - 10/22/14 09:29 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Hahahaha.

That made me laugh.

"Vait. You mean you vant it to actually work?!? That will cost you ... say... another $2 billion."


~Bill

In my defense, I was left unsupervised...
#4025823 - 10/22/14 09:36 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Azshal Offline
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Quote:
The Admiral Kuznetsov, Russias only aircraft carrier,


So I guess the USSR was focusing on RADAR/SAM and nukes, while the US played it more "Jack of all Trades"?

#4025831 - 10/22/14 09:51 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: Wrecking Crew]  
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Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew
LOL

Here is the new design --



WC


at least the electrics still work.


My il2 page
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My Models
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#4025846 - 10/22/14 10:37 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: Ajay]  
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DaBBQ Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ajay
Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew
LOL

Here is the new design --



WC


at least the electrics still work.


That's the lens flare effect for propaganda.

#4025897 - 10/23/14 12:37 AM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Pielstick Offline
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Apart from the absolutely outstanding standard of technical journalism, the only thing I take away from that article is a ship broke down.

Wow.

In eleven years I've only ever sailed on one ship that didn't have a propulsion failure during my time on it.

#4025931 - 10/23/14 02:03 AM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: Pielstick]  
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
Apart from the absolutely outstanding standard of technical journalism, the only thing I take away from that article is a ship broke down.

Wow.

In eleven years I've only ever sailed on one ship that didn't have a propulsion failure during my time on it.


This. But you also forgot to mention the terrible, terrible translations of Chinese terms in at least one of those articles. Machine oven space? I think they mean boiler room there...

Also, any ship that was initially half built, then stored for several years, in the corrosive environment of the ocean, is going to be a wreck. Same thing happens to that '57 BelAir that your great uncle has been storing in his barn since 1972- it's not going to turn over and run the first time you turn the key.


" And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.'"- John F. Kennedy

"NUKE-ular. It's pronounced NUKE-ular."- Homer Simpson

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#4025956 - 10/23/14 03:24 AM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Haggart Offline
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Our Garcia-class frigate in the late 70's was always having issues. At sea we called the ship the "whistling sh*tcan". It got a complete overhaul finally in dry dock .... on our first trip out of dry dock we had to be towed back for, "minor adjustments".

As to the Russian built carrier ....good lord.


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4025958 - 10/23/14 03:32 AM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted By: Haggart
Our Garcia-class frigate in the late 70's was always having issues. At sea we called the ship the "whistling sh*tcan". It got a complete overhaul finally in dry dock .... on our first trip out of dry dock we had to be towed back for, "minor adjustments".

As to the Russian built carrier ....good lord.


Oh, the stories that could be told about the Enterprise and all her maintenance woes... Especially trying to come out of the yards any time in the last twenty years or so she was in commission.


" And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.'"- John F. Kennedy

"NUKE-ular. It's pronounced NUKE-ular."- Homer Simpson

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#4026097 - 10/23/14 02:39 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Entil'zha
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At a certain point you just shouldn't buy used!



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4026167 - 10/23/14 05:09 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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oldgrognard Offline
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Pielstick and Navynuke, I understand and value your opinions since you both speak from experience. But, I think there is a world of difference between carriers that can't even conduct air operations and what you are speaking about. US and UK carriers have been conducting high OPTEMPO air operations around the world.

Every ship has its problems, but this is a bit different.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4026190 - 10/23/14 05:50 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Lifer
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The funny thing is the Chinese were originally claiming they had bought the carrier as a "Casino" and "Amusement park".

Seems they got their gamble and in for quite a ride.

#4026211 - 10/23/14 06:39 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: Azshal]  
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Mechanus Offline
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Originally Posted By: phd_doc


So I guess the USSR was focusing on RADAR/SAM and nukes, while the US played it more "Jack of all Trades"?


Well, don't forget the submarine fleet, which wouldn't have far to go from their home ports to fight. The USSR was always a land power, its focus was the the Eurasian landmass in one hemisphere. To use conventional forces as a means to an end anywhere on the globe isn't what it wanted to do, nor really could do- its more immediate enemies are right next door in Western Europe and China. As much as it sank itself with unrealistically bloated military budgets at the expense of the private sector, It didn't have unlimited resources, it had too much on its plate already.

The way it had conceptualized WWIII had been born out from its experiences in WWII, from that perspective, the theory isn't illogical. The Soviets also regarded politics as a dimension in warfare that had no real Western counterpart. Because the assumption is a USSR/Warsaw Pact attack into Europe, the idea is to violently intimidate and confuse NATO into a peace deal. NATO isn't just a military alliance, it represents millions of real people who have real lives caught in the path, so the attack was designed to make the citizens force their governments to accept the existential situation.

So for instance, The USSR and the Warsaw Pact had to defeat NATO in very quick time before the 'Battle of the Atlantic' could begin and reinforcements could arrive, the War was supposed to be over in days or weeks, not months or years- this did not require much of a surface fleet. A longer war would in theory swing in the balance for NATO (assuming it didn't erupt into a complete nuclear catastrophe). They didn't want to get into that.

The initial shock and momentum of a full scale attack was designed to throw NATO off balance, exploit the politically weaker NATO command structure by attacking the joints where different NATO headquarters from different countries were mingled, separating the weaker member states from the rest of NATO, make them one by one secure a deal for their own peace.





#4026265 - 10/23/14 08:31 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Entil'zha
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Yes, because after being on the receiving end of one, they felt a blitzkrieg was the right way to go...even though they themselves defeated it and beat back the instigator to a final victory.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4026284 - 10/23/14 09:17 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Mechanus Offline
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The Soviet version of Blitzkrieg is Deep Battle- and it predicts that warfare is synergistic with political and economic and cultural objectives.

How do the Soviets overcome its own certain deficiencies such as possessing one primitive aircraft carrier? Well, it takes advantage of the fact that as the attacker, its operations take place in the enemy's territory, rather than its own. Waves and waves of escaping civilians will clog up road networks, stalling or isolating military traffic, and just as importantly provide cover for advancing Soviet forces as they are commingled with them, forcing NATO to decide whether to bomb or nuke its own fleeing people, in the process demoralizing and weakening itself.

At some point, individual commanders will begin to decide whether they are members of NATO first or whether they wish to preserve their own countries, just as for similar reasons America is part of the UN, but many Americans wouldn't particularly think that means it should come at the expense of American interests. The junior members of the Warsaw Pact could be described in much the same terms.

#4026313 - 10/23/14 10:56 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Pielstick Offline
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Originally Posted By: oldgrognard
Every ship has its problems, but this is a bit different.


Every defect or failure can be traced back to DMOM:

Design, Manufacture, Operation, Maintenance.

In eleven years I have sailed on eight different ships. Every single one of them had issues with at least one element of DMOM. In several cases they were major issues that directly impacted operational capability. At times I was left incredulous that a country with the 4th largest defence budget in the world can be operating naval vessels with such issues.

I'm sitting in a pretty big glass house and I'm not going to be throwing any stones.

Especially as I've been told I'm shortly joining a ship that I know to be an absolute nightmare from an engineer's perspective.

Unless something changes I'm going to be bringing this monstrosity out of a major refit:



The power of Christ compels you!

behindcouch

Last edited by Pielstick; 10/23/14 11:15 PM.
#4026320 - 10/23/14 11:08 PM Re: The lesson is ... [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Soviet air craft carriers, and they did have a lot of them. Where in fact guided ship to ship missile vessels. Seems like they mounted those missile tubes on everything. They did not have to worry about the entire globe in a ww3 scenario. Just Europe and Asia. With carriers it is a lot of eggs in one basket. But they sure do pay for themselves in less than a modern global war. Not sure what would have happened had US fleets encountered massed cruise missile attacks from ships and planes in a conventional ww3. Probably would have been all about killing carriers. So who would have lost all their ships and planes first? Pre 80's all bets are off. Post mid 80's pretty sure the US would have ended up with a much smaller carrier force but been the one left floating on the seas.

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