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#4024375 - 10/19/14 12:14 PM No Bombers..yet  
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I have been thinking about posting this ..or not for some days now. I have waited to check and test in campaign, fly with my squadron for some more hours before writing here. And here it goes,...

After 35 flying hours of Jasta 5 campaign I must say, Flanders is full of SPAD VIIs and Nieuports and 1 or 2 Strutters,...no bombers , recce craft,...almost all the ecnounters are with fighters on deep offensive patrols, odd, even after the last patch, this still seems wrong to me...my kill list is FULL of scouts, not a single RE8, Be 2c,...

What are your impresions?

#4024381 - 10/19/14 12:47 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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I will be curious to see players thoughts here.
I do not have near enough campaign time to form a coherent opinion.
I got about 6 campaigns going but, because of real life stuff, only have a few missions on each. But I have the most time (about 11 missions) on a Jasta 11 career restarted once.

But since you mention a Jasta where have the bulk of your missions been? Since you mention enemy fighters on deep offensive patrols I will assume far or semi-far behind the lines.
I wonder if the enemy composition changes nearer the front? And during whatever time period you are flying?

I guess my thinking here is that behind the lines I would expect a lot of DOP by the enemy along with some bombing and minor recon?
At the front line area I would think you would see Art Obs, more photo recon, and a less bombing. In my reading actual fighter escorts for two seaters was tough to coordinate so the RFC often just assigned fighters to patrol areas they knew their two seaters would be working in. This being said a lot of RFC fighters behind the lines would be natural. That was the point of DOP - to intercept and break up the Jastas before the got near the front where the bulk of the two seater work would be occurring.

This is just wild speculation on my part but it makes some sense to me but I do not know if the campaign engine reflects this.
And FWIW the bulk of my Jasta flights (again the first part of two careers) have been behind the lines with single seaters being the most common encounter - but I guess that kind of makes sense as I have explained above or so I tell myself.

#4024384 - 10/19/14 12:53 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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It may have something to do with 3rd party mission types. I remember after the frequency of 2-seater flights was recalculated in one of the patches a lot of people complained that nothing had changed for them. Then it came up that having 3rd party missions enabled overrides this setting somehow

Also try this experimental J view and you will see how many two-seaters there are in the area actually.


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#4024385 - 10/19/14 12:55 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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No 3rd party missions here Rover.

#4024386 - 10/19/14 12:55 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Yes that is correct which is why I do not use them as, I believe, they were never updated or fixed to work with the newer patches.

EDIT: Which is too bad. I never understood how the mission files broke the two seater fix in one of the patches.
I have looked at them and am not seeing it. Wonder if you could just use the fighter version if you so desired? I ran a tweaked mission file in OFF to better suit what my idea of a elite squadron would be doing.

#4024396 - 10/19/14 02:04 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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It's not scientific, but my claims log is still 85%+ scouts, no unusual mission types here...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4024398 - 10/19/14 02:14 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Another factor is that the scouts are out there looking for you, while the bombers try to stay clear of you. If you don't see the scout, there's still a decent chance he'll come find you anyway. If you don't see the bomber, chances of an engagement are pretty much nil.

#4024399 - 10/19/14 02:14 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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When flying for Germany, I see fewer bombers/recce craft in 1918.
My Jasta time in DiD sees many bombers and recce airplanes.

#4024457 - 10/19/14 04:49 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Seeing an enemy two-seater has been a rare event for me so far. In my DID campaign, the ratio of seeing enemy two-seaters versus fighters is about 1:10 or less I'd say.

#4024489 - 10/19/14 05:49 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: gecko]  
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Originally Posted By: gecko
Another factor is that the scouts are out there looking for you, while the bombers try to stay clear of you. If you don't see the scout, there's still a decent chance he'll come find you anyway. If you don't see the bomber, chances of an engagement are pretty much nil.


I would say this is excellent logic especially if you are flying without any aids such as the TAC, labels, etc.

Straight up the AI pilots are almost certainly seeing you before you see them.
The fighters come for you and the two seaters continue on their merry way and depending on flight angles you probably never see them.

#4024495 - 10/19/14 05:58 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Quote:
Straight up the AI pilots are almost certainly seeing you before you see them.
The fighters come for you and the two seaters continue on their merry way and depending on flight angles you probably never see them.


If this is true, the AI logic completely breaks the realism in this sim, I don´t think bombers can avoid you as if they had radars...well, I hope,..

#4024508 - 10/19/14 06:20 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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I tested in a non DiD campaign with label activity on.

Enemy engage around 2.7 miles.
No way can you know they are there, let alone what they are doing without aids.

That is what makes no aids more challenging.

#4024510 - 10/19/14 06:29 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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This was tested a few months back I believe, but it's really easy to see what's going on during a mission. If you just start the mission and then exit before takeoff. Then go to the log file and open the "mission.log" file, you can count the number and types of aircraft that were generated and their mission objectives.

In 1916 there's not that many activated bases, but it gradually increases up to 1918 where you can get over 200 aircraft flying around. However, the ratio of fighters to bomber is still too high IMHO even after the last patch... sorry, I don't mean to be negative, but just stating the facts.

#4024526 - 10/19/14 06:44 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Originally Posted By: ArisFuser
Quote:
Straight up the AI pilots are almost certainly seeing you before you see them.
The fighters come for you and the two seaters continue on their merry way and depending on flight angles you probably never see them.


If this is true, the AI logic completely breaks the realism in this sim, I don´t think bombers can avoid you as if they had radars...well, I hope,..


I wouldn't say that.
I guess what I meant was that with everything equal that little dot at 2.5 miles could be anything assuming you see it on your monitor with all that's going on, resolution, anti aliasing, etc.
At the same exact distance the AI has no distractions and knows it's you was all I meant. I didn't mean to infer that the AI had super duper vision.

#4024531 - 10/19/14 06:50 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Well, now that I think of it, the occasions in which I have been able to surprise an AI enemy flight must be,...umm, never?

#4024533 - 10/19/14 06:57 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: OldHat]  
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Originally Posted By: OldHat
This was tested a few months back I believe, but it's really easy to see what's going on during a mission. If you just start the mission and then exit before takeoff. Then go to the log file and open the "mission.log" file, you can count the number and types of aircraft that were generated and their mission objectives.

In 1916 there's not that many activated bases, but it gradually increases up to 1918 where you can get over 200 aircraft flying around. However, the ratio of fighters to bomber is still too high IMHO even after the last patch... sorry, I don't mean to be negative, but just stating the facts.


Guess I really don't know historically what a good ratio of "in the air" fighters to bombers should be however 2.0 is supposed to include campaign fixes. What those fixes are has not been detailed. Maybe this if it is, in fact, a historical issue.

#4024547 - 10/19/14 07:14 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Originally Posted By: ArisFuser
Well, now that I think of it, the occasions in which I have been able to surprise an AI enemy flight must be,...umm, never?


In the simulation.xml file, there are values for vision distance and how often the AI scans the skies. It's set to 3 seconds. To prove this, try to adjust only the offensiveSearchCycle_secs= and defensiveSearchCycle_secs= to say 20 seconds. Save the file and fire up a quick mission. The enemy won't even notice that you flew just under or above them and everyone will fly past each other.

Also, I've mentioned that the vision distance is too accurate (at 6km) and unfair because I can't even see the dots past 3km on my good monitor.

The enemy will not scan so often if it's either heading home or landing, otherwise, if it's patrolling or fighting, then there is no way you'll be able to surprise them no matter how sneaky. Except, of course, if you manage to ambush them flying through a cloud and jump directly behind them.

Once the enemy heads for home or starts to land, it is deaf dumb and blind until you shoot at them or they see tracers fly by.

#4024549 - 10/19/14 07:17 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
Originally Posted By: OldHat
This was tested a few months back I believe, but it's really easy to see what's going on during a mission. If you just start the mission and then exit before takeoff. Then go to the log file and open the "mission.log" file, you can count the number and types of aircraft that were generated and their mission objectives.

In 1916 there's not that many activated bases, but it gradually increases up to 1918 where you can get over 200 aircraft flying around. However, the ratio of fighters to bomber is still too high IMHO even after the last patch... sorry, I don't mean to be negative, but just stating the facts.


Guess I really don't know historically what a good ration of "in the air" fighters to bombers should be however 2.0 is supposed to include campaign fixes. What those fixes are has not been detailed. Maybe this if it is, in fact, a historical issue.


I'm not sure either, but I'd like to see more bombers in the sky just to add more variety during encounters.

#4024553 - 10/19/14 07:25 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Originally Posted By: ArisFuser
Well, now that I think of it, the occasions in which I have been able to surprise an AI enemy flight must be,...umm, never?


Right. It would be cool if the AI wing or tail surfaces were able to block his vision but this is not modeled I am sure. The AI always pays attention and if you are visual range, though it may be the same as yours, you are spotted. Nor does he have his wife or girlfriend trying to talk to him while he flies or the dog barking, or that tiny dot being initially lost in the terrain background. Being equal in visibility always favors the computer IMHO.

#4024559 - 10/19/14 07:32 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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OldHat are you saying the AI is set to "see" you at 6 KM?
If correct then I guess that explains why the bulk of encounters would be with fighters.

#4024562 - 10/19/14 07:40 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Interesting facts indeed, OldHat. I think some changes regarding this would make the sim more enjoyable, no doubt.

#4024568 - 10/19/14 07:49 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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So is there a way to adjust the distance they engage you at or no?


I got fired as the door man at a sperm bank.
Apparently it's in poor taste to tell leaving customers "Thanks for coming."

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#4024572 - 10/19/14 07:59 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: AceMedic88]  
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Originally Posted By: CaNy_Ace88
So is there a way to adjust the distance they engage you at or no?


Well, yes and no. You see, the AI is cleverly programmed to account for various circumstances (see WM's post on AI). However, you can adjust the distance it will "see" other EA as well as how often it will scan the skies. These are in the simulation.xml file. It was mentioned by me in another post that I adjusted the values for maxRange_met= and perfectRange_met= to less than half the distance. Be warned that I don't get any encounters for 4-6 missions and I just fly my waypoints and land back at base. It's very thrilling when do get surprised by an encounter of bombers or fighters....

#4024575 - 10/19/14 08:04 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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There must be a way to reduce the engagement per sortie ratio. At the moment, April 1917, after 3 months of campaign, there hasn´t been a single sortie without fighting for Jasta 8 in Boistraincourt. I could fly for 2 hours and would met dozens of enemy aircraft,...attacking me with altitude advantage, of course,...By the way, I love this sim, all these points are risen to improve it even more if possible.

Last edited by ArisFuser; 10/19/14 08:05 PM.
#4024576 - 10/19/14 08:07 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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I have my dot distance set to about 3km, and my wingmen always start reacting way before I can see anything. In fact, watching them is a pretty good low-tech early warning radar system...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4024580 - 10/19/14 08:13 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: OldHat]  
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Originally Posted By: OldHat
Originally Posted By: CaNy_Ace88
So is there a way to adjust the distance they engage you at or no?


Well, yes and no. You see, the AI is cleverly programmed to account for various circumstances (see WM's post on AI). However, you can adjust the distance it will "see" other EA as well as how often it will scan the skies. These are in the simulation.xml file. It was mentioned by me in another post that I adjusted the values for maxRange_met= and perfectRange_met= to less than half the distance. Be warned that I don't get any encounters for 4-6 missions and I just fly my waypoints and land back at base. It's very thrilling when do get surprised by an encounter of bombers or fighters....


So in your opinion would this be "realistic" at all?


I got fired as the door man at a sperm bank.
Apparently it's in poor taste to tell leaving customers "Thanks for coming."

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#4024587 - 10/19/14 08:41 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Originally Posted By: ArisFuser
There must be a way to reduce the engagement per sortie ratio. At the moment, April 1917, after 3 months of campaign, there hasn´t been a single sortie without fighting for Jasta 8 in Boistraincourt. I could fly for 2 hours and would met dozens of enemy aircraft,...attacking me with altitude advantage, of course,...By the way, I love this sim, all these points are risen to improve it even more if possible.


Interesting. I have been flying with Jasta 11 in April 1917 and my encounter rate is 50% at best.
Of course this is all pre-"the big offensive" scheduled to start in about 10 days.

#4024620 - 10/19/14 10:12 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: AceMedic88]  
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Originally Posted By: CaNy_Ace88
Originally Posted By: OldHat
Originally Posted By: CaNy_Ace88
So is there a way to adjust the distance they engage you at or no?


Well, yes and no. You see, the AI is cleverly programmed to account for various circumstances (see WM's post on AI). However, you can adjust the distance it will "see" other EA as well as how often it will scan the skies. These are in the simulation.xml file. It was mentioned by me in another post that I adjusted the values for maxRange_met= and perfectRange_met= to less than half the distance. Be warned that I don't get any encounters for 4-6 missions and I just fly my waypoints and land back at base. It's very thrilling when do get surprised by an encounter of bombers or fighters....


So in your opinion would this be "realistic" at all?


That is the million dollar question! Realistic?
Without a heck of a lot more info I don't know.
Have sorties per encounter ever been calculated historically?
And during what season, weather, unit type, mission type, aircraft type, on which front or sector, with what quality of squadron leadership, during a big push or not? Morning or afternoon?

Oldhat and I had a similar discussion a couple of days ago. Realism has to be balanced with playability unless you have all the time in the world on your hands.
To paraphrase our earlier discussion lets say the figure of 1 encounter per 8 flights is derived. Are most gamers going to sit and fly 7 no-contact missions for every dogfight? Probably not except for the serious hardcore and there are not all that many of them when you are trying to make money selling a sim. Assuming 1 in 8 is "realistic" of course.

The bottom line for me, in the absence of hard figures, realism for a WW1 flight sim is what I determine it should be. Its my sim, my reality, and I fly it to enjoy myself and not as a self flogging exercise.
Is WOFF "real enough" in its current form for me to have a hell of a good time? Yep! Are there things that need tweaking? Sure! I am all about modifying any program to make it suit my idea of realism and you should do so too!

#4024631 - 10/19/14 10:47 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand


That is the million dollar question! Realistic?
Without a heck of a lot more info I don't know.
Have sorties per encounter ever been calculated historically?
And during what season, weather, unit type, mission type, aircraft type, on which front or sector, with what quality of squadron leadership, during a big push or not? Morning or afternoon?

Oldhat and I had a similar discussion a couple of days ago. Realism has to be balanced with playability unless you have all the time in the world on your hands.
To paraphrase our earlier discussion lets say the figure of 1 encounter per 8 flights is derived. Are most gamers going to sit and fly 7 no-contact missions for every dogfight? Probably not except for the serious hardcore and there are not all that many of them when you are trying to make money selling a sim. Assuming 1 in 8 is "realistic" of course.

The bottom line for me, in the absence of hard figures, realism for a WW1 flight sim is what I determine it should be. Its my sim, my reality, and I fly it to enjoy myself and not as a self flogging exercise.
Is WOFF "real enough" in its current form for me to have a hell of a good time? Yep! Are there things that need tweaking? Sure! I am all about modifying any program to make it suit my idea of realism and you should do so too!


To acknowledge that you are bound to have enemy contact every flight, I have started flying only two or three missions a week, assuming my "avatar" is flying a bunch more that are "milk runs". That way, my careers start to look slightly more plausible, while I don't have to sit through a bunch of boring missions. (corsair would wisely point out how they shouldn't be boring despite the lack of contact) That's a win-win for me! It's basically the way Red Baron handled it where you would fly a handful of missions a month and it worked out fine...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4024635 - 10/19/14 11:09 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Perfect Rick!
The mark of a good simulation is allowing a player to determine what his idea of real is and how he wants to implement it.
For me WOFF as it is now is A-OK and provides much enjoyment though I am always on the lookout for a minor tweak or two to improve the idea of realism for me.

#4025033 - 10/20/14 11:12 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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As was pointed out earlier, artillery, recce and bomber pilots usually choose discretion as the better part of valour and dive for home when trouble appears, whereas opposing fighter pilots come looking for it. The other thing to remember is that the two seaters (other than the Rumplers) are normally operating several thousand feet below you, and are hard to spot against the mud.
Cheers
shredward


We will remember them.
#4025173 - 10/21/14 11:44 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Pictures speak by themselves,..



#4025178 - 10/21/14 11:52 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Red Baron Victory list, note bomber/scout ratio...specially in 1916-1917

1 Sept. 17, 1916 FE 2b near Cambrai
2 Sept. 23, 1916 Martinsyde G 100 Somme River
3 Sept. 30, 1916 FE 2b Fremicourt
4 Oct. 7, 1916 BE 12 Equancourt
5 Oct. 10, 1916 BE 12 Ypres
6 Oct. 16, 1916 BE 12 near Ypres
7 Nov. 3, 1916 FE 2b Loupart Wood
8 Nov. 9, 1916 Be 2c Beugny
9 Nov. 20, 1916 BE 12 Geudecourt
10 Nov. 20, 1916 FE 2b Geudecourt
11 Nov. 23, 1916 DH 2 Bapaume
12 Dec. 11, 1916 DH 2 Mercatel
13 Dec. 20, 1916 DH 2 Moncy-le-Preux
14 Dec. 20, 1916 FE 2b Moreuil
15 Dec. 27, 1916 FE 2b Ficheux
16 Jan. 4, 1917 Sopwith Pup Metz-en-Coutre
17 Jan. 23, 1917 FE 8 Lens
18 Jan. 24, 1917 FE 2b Vitry
19 Feb. 1, 1917 BE 2e Thelus
20 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Loos
21 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Mazingarbe
22 Mar. 4, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Acheville
23 Mar. 4, 1917 BE 2d Loos
24 Mar. 3, 1917 BE 2c Souchez
25 Mar. 9, 1917 DH 2 Bailleul
26 Mar. 11, 1917 BE 2d Vimy
27 Mar. 17, 1917 FE 2b Oppy
28 Mar. 17, 1917 BE 2c Vimy
29 Mar. 21, 1917 BE 2c La Neuville
30 Mar. 24, 1917 Spad VII Givenchy
31 Mar. 25, 1917 Nieuport 17 Tilloy
32 April 2, 1917 BE 2d Farbus
33 April 2, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Givenchy
34 April 3, 1917 FE 2d Lens
35 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Lembras
36 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Quincy
37 April 7, 1917 Nieuport 17 Mercatel
38 April 8, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Farbus
39 April 8, 1917 BE 2e Vimy
40 April 11, 1917 BE 2c Willerval
41 April 13, 1917 RE 8 Vitry
42 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Monchy
43 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Henin
44 April 14, 1917 Nieuport 17 Bois Bernard
45 April 16, 1917 BE 2c Bailleul
46 April 22, 1917 FE 2b Lagnicourt
47 April 23, 1917 BE 2e Mericourt
48 April 28, 1917 BE 2e Pelves
49 April 29, 1917 Spad VII Lecluse
50 April 29, 1917 FE 2b Inchy
51 April 29, 1917 BE 2d Roeux
52 April 29, 1917 Nieuport 17 Billy-Montigny
53 June 18, 1917 RE 8 Strugwe
54 June 23, 1917 Spad VII Ypres
55 June 26, 1917 RE 8 Keilbergmelen
56 June 25, 1917 RE 8 Le Bizet
57 July 2, 1917 RE 8 Deulemont
58 Aug. 16, 1917 Nieuport 17 Houthulster Wald
59 Aug. 26, 1917 Spad VII Poelcapelle
60 Sept. 2, 1917 RE 8 Zonebeke
61 Sept. 3, 1917 Sopwith Pup Bousbecque
62 Nov. 23, 1917 DH 5 Bourlon Wood
63 Nov. 30, 1917 SE 5a Moevres
64 Mar. 12, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Nauroy
65 Mar. 13, 1918 Sopwith Camel Gonnelieu
66 Mar. 18, 1918 Sopwith Camel Andigny
67 Mar. 24, 1918 SE 5a Combles
68 Mar. 25, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
69 Mar. 26, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
70 Mar. 26, 1918 RE 8 Albert
71 Mar. 27, 1918 Sopwith Camel Aveluy
72 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Foucacourt
73 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Chuignolles
74 Mar. 28, 1918 Armstrong Whitworth FK 8 Mericourt
75 April 2, 1918 FE 8 Moreuil
76 April 6, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux
77 April 7, 1918 SE 5a Hangard
78 April 7, 1918 Spad VII Villers-Bretonneux
79 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Bois-de-Hamel
80 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux

Last edited by ArisFuser; 10/21/14 11:53 AM.
#4025215 - 10/21/14 01:32 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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You shot down 2 SE5's from an Albatros DII? notworthy


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4026189 - 10/23/14 05:50 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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Originally Posted By: Rick_Rawlings
You shot down 2 SE5's from an Albatros DII? notworthy


And flown by ...


#4026207 - 10/23/14 06:33 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Nice! Voss is avenged!


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4026453 - 10/24/14 04:24 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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I know it's not the point of this thread but just as an FYI, that MvR victory list is a bit outdated. Of course, that's no fault of yours, AF. Looks to be the one from Nowarra and Brown's 1958 von Richthofen and the Flying Circus. 40 years of further research has refined the list and the one in Franks/Giblin/McCrery's 1998 Under the Guns of the Red Baron is much more accurate. Still a few hazy areas, but much closer.

As it stands now, MvR shot down 45 two-seaters and 35 single-seaters. That breaks down to 56% of his total victories were two-seaters, 44% were single-seaters. Interestingly, the majority of his two-seater victories were attained prior to his 6 July 1917 wounding. In that period he shot down 57 airplanes, of which 17 were single-seaters (30%) and 40 were two-seaters (70%). After being wounded he shot down 23 airplanes, of which 17 were single-seaters (74%) and 6 were two-seaters (26%). Note that these percentages are almost exactly opposite those of his pre-wound period.

Top-three plane types he downed: FE2 (17), BE2 (12), and Sopwith Camel (9).

BTW, MvR wasn't alone with the majority of his tally comprised of two-seaters. Here are some others:

Max Immelmann: 80%
Oswald Boelcke: 70%
LvRichthofen: 60%
Karl Schaefer: 80%
Werner Voss: 52%
Kurt Wolff: 58%
Karl Allmenroeder: 60%
Albert Ball: 68% (includes a balloon)
Raoul Lufbery: 94-100%
Lanoe Hawker: 71-86%
James McCudden: 75%
George McElroy: 52% (includes three balloons)

Of course, there are pilots whose tallies reflect of a majority of single-seater victories. For instance, Loewenhardt has 54 credited victories, of which 65% were single-seaters.

Anyway, time to fire up my BE12 get back into this sim. Been away for a while.

#4026501 - 10/24/14 08:18 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Long time no see JFM.
We needed your help a couple of months ago but you didn't see the posts from me and Olham.
You mentioning "Under the guns....." reminded me as that was the source I used in the discussion.

Which of MvR's victories were obtained flying the Halberstadt after the reported wing problems with the Albs?

#4026505 - 10/24/14 08:28 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Accordin to the Aerodrome:

Quote:
26 11 Mar 1917 1200 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II B.E.2d (6232) S of La Folie Wood
27 17 Mar 1917 1130 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II F.E.2b (A5439) Oppy
28 17 Mar 1917 1700 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II B.E.2g (2814) W of Vimy
29 21 Mar 1917 1730 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II B.E.2e (A3154) Hill 123, N of Neuville
30 24 Mar 1917 1155 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II SPAD VII (A6706) Givenchy
31 25 Mar 1917 0820 Jasta 11 Halberstadt D.II Nieuport 17 (A6689) Tilloy


But the Wikipedia has a different idea of this,...¿?¿

#4026546 - 10/24/14 12:23 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Hello,

MvR's Halberstadt victories. Like many of MvR's victories prior to June 1917, sometimes we just don't know what he flew and when. Most times! As least as regards serial numbers. He started flying Alb D.Is--not D.IIs, as many think--but it is unknown precisely when he switched to the D.II, and it is possible there wasn't a hard point switch but a period during which he flew both types during different sorties. It's not until 27 December's combat report that he specifically lists (or the translator first bothered to include) the plane he flew, which was Albatros D.II 481/16 (four eight one sixteen).

Same with the Halberstadt. Under the Guns has him flying a Halberstadt D.II all of February and all of March, so that’d be victories 19-31. (Incidentally, Jasta 11 was primarily a Halberstadt D.V squadron.) I respectfully disagree with this. From what I’ve gleaned, victories 19, 20, 21 were in a Halberstadt D-type (exact model unknown). After that, the Albatros D.III grounding (to reinforce their lower wings) had been lifted, and the evidence suggests MvR was back in the Albatros. For instance, he specifically identifies his airplane as an Albatros when he was shot down 6 March; victories 22 and 27 were described as taking over 500 rounds to be shot down (the Halberstadts only carried 500 rounds, so he couldn’t have fired “800 shots” at #27); photos taken 9 March show Karl Schaefer was flying an Albatros D.III, not a Halberstadt, etc. It is known that when he was still with Jasta Boelcke MvR lobbied against the Halberstadt because it only had a single gun. He preferred the development of the higher powered, twin-gunned Albs, so it is unlikely he would continue to fly a Halberstadt six weeks longer than necessary. Even if his Alb D.III Le Petit Rouge required that long to repair, researcher Lance Bronnenkant uncovered evidence of MvR flying D.IIIs other than that machine. His pending book on Richthofen, the fifth of Aeronaut Books’ Blue Max Airmen Series, which will be available here http://www.aeronautbooks.com/, has photographs of this—and this really should be no surprise, seeing how often he switched between different Albatros D.Vs and Fokker triplanes.

The only argument for MvR flying the Halb until April seems to be various RFC combat reports that mention a Halberstadt. However, we must remember that at that stage of the war RFC airmen often used the word “Halberstadt” to identify German fighters as freely as the Germans used the term “Vikkers” to identify the FE2 and DH2. But even beyond all that, there are lists of Jasta 11 complements that show their Halberstadt D.Vs were all exchanged for Albatros D.IIIs by 28 February, anyway.

#4026576 - 10/24/14 01:11 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Many thanks for the valuable, and detailed, information.
You are certainly the "go to" guy for historical data!

#4026820 - 10/24/14 08:05 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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My pleasure! But I'm certainly not "the" go-to guy. You've heard "mile wide but an inch deep"; I'm a mile deep but an inch wide. My WW1 aviation knowledge is like a knife: precision-honed and extremely sharp along a very narrow edge. The majority of me is harmless smooth metal.

#4026838 - 10/24/14 08:44 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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My tuppenceworth - there aren't enough two-seaters, compared to scouts.

Two-seaters who 'see you coming' and bug out, unseen, doesn't wash, TAC, labels or not.

There have been some good books published recently which cover the operations of the 'working planes' and from these and some older classics like 'Into the Blue', these planes were half blind when working, taking pics or observing for the gunners, flying straight lines or predictable patterns. Which was what they were doing, a lot of the time, often on their own. Especially on art obs, as photo recces were sometimes flown by a formation of 2-seaters like Strutters, especially beyond the trenches or to an especially dangerous or important objective. Sometimes they escaped unseen; sometimes, spotted, they dived away and/or escaped, especially the Germans who were fast compared to 1916-17 RFC scouts; but other times, they were caught, sometimes by surprise.

Ideally, if possible, there should be significantly more 2-seaters flying simulated art obs or trench photo missions near the Lines. Preferably without magical abilities to see you coming, when they sometimes shouldn't, never mind often seeing you before you see them.


SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread
CombatAce Mission Reports
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." (attributed to Marcus Aurelius)

#4026864 - 10/24/14 09:53 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted By: 33lima
My tuppenceworth - there aren't enough two-seaters, compared to scouts.

Two-seaters who 'see you coming' and bug out, unseen, doesn't wash, TAC, labels or not.

There have been some good books published recently which cover the operations of the 'working planes' and from these and some older classics like 'Into the Blue', these planes were half blind when working, taking pics or observing for the gunners, flying straight lines or predictable patterns. Which was what they were doing, a lot of the time, often on their own. Especially on art obs, as photo recces were sometimes flown by a formation of 2-seaters like Strutters, especially beyond the trenches or to an especially dangerous or important objective. Sometimes they escaped unseen; sometimes, spotted, they dived away and/or escaped, especially the Germans who were fast compared to 1916-17 RFC scouts; but other times, they were caught, sometimes by surprise.

Ideally, if possible, there should be significantly more 2-seaters flying simulated art obs or trench photo missions near the Lines. Preferably without magical abilities to see you coming, when they sometimes shouldn't, never mind often seeing you before you see them.


+1

I have tried suggestions on this forum to lighten the air activity, hell, I've even modified the visual range and scanning times in the simulation.xml file, but to no avail. It doesn't work right.

It would be nice if the devs can "fix" some things:

1. Whether light, medium, or heavy air activity, there are still too many scouts compared to bombers flying in the sky at any given time. (check to mission log to see it!)

2. All aircraft scan the sky at the same 5 second interval. So, just like you mentioned, this needs to be different for bombers who are focused on their mission and not actively scanning the skies like scouts.

3. When the AI is dogfighting or patrolling the skies, it's awesome, but otherwise it's very predictable. It's a bit of a cheat, but you can keep turn fighting an EA until they give up and return home, then just sneak up on it and shoot it down before it has a chance to react. I've seen that they will never engage you when their activity label shows "going home" unless you shoot at them.

4. More lone wolf patrols so that you don't have AI squad mates who turn to fight enemies before you can see them. Or program them not to react unless you do.

5. Turn off the whistling of dropped bombs. Just know there are enemy bombers nearby when something goes BOOM! Also, give us a chance to start back up our engines and take off after landing and turning off the engine so that we can intercept those pesky bombers.

6. I didn't notice if the enemy bombers have other bombing targets besides airfields and factories.


I apologize for going a bit off topic, but they're all related issues....somehow.

#4026893 - 10/24/14 11:02 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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It would appear the Dev's are up on the bulk of these issues, least the two-seater issue, and I expect things will be taken care of in 2.0 - at least there will be changes in the right direction I think.

For a change maybe I can help with the sound (#5) issue. Or at least offer forth a suggestion.
Many times I try to change sounds around (actually blank them out) if it ruins my sense of "realism".
Things that I think I would not hear in the air. Though, so far, I am pretty happy with the "Realistic" setting in the Workshop.

Find the sound you don't wish to hear (I have done the pilot hit noises before in OFF) and replace them with a blank .wav file.
Rename the original if you wish it back.
Another option I have also done (with a freeware program that I forget the name of now)is to reduce the volume of the individual files.

#4026898 - 10/24/14 11:11 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted By: JFM

After being wounded he shot down 23 airplanes, of which 17 were single-seaters (74%) and 6 were two-seaters (26%). Note that these percentages are almost exactly opposite those of his pre-wound period.


I have read everything I can get a hold of on MvR so it's a topic of personal interest to me. Also I like WW1 aviation in general and a lot of history seems to be written about him.

Anyway reference your quote above what, in your opinion, is the reason for this?
In perusing his victory lists I have noticed this before so I am curious to see if your opinion coincides with mine.

#4026977 - 10/25/14 03:05 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand

Another option I have also done (with a freeware program that I forget the name of now)is to reduce the volume of the individual files.


Audacity?

As to MvR's post wounding propensity for scouts, I would guess the suggestion is that he was leery of going after those two seaters...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4026987 - 10/25/14 03:55 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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MORZ two seaters isd not hard two do. banghead

#4026995 - 10/25/14 05:03 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: Wolfstriked]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfstriked
MORZ two seaters isd not hard two do. banghead


thumbsup biggrin


i5 2320, 3.3 GHz
GTX 560Ti, 4 GB graphics memory
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Windows 7 64x
#4027035 - 10/25/14 10:00 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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Originally Posted By: Rick_Rawlings

As to MvR's post wounding propensity for scouts, I would guess the suggestion is that he was leery of going after those two seaters...


I guess my thought was much more simple....that the RFC/RAF fighters by that stage of the war were so numerous and so aggressive they really couldn't be avoided. To fly was to fight them.

#4027067 - 10/25/14 12:54 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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I'm inclined to agree with that, Duke. At times the Germans had tactical superiority but always the British had strategic and numerical superiority. By March/April 1918 there were more and more British fighters to deal with. Looking at Loewenhardt's score I mentioned earlier, you can see he started off in 1917 with a mix of balloons and two-seaters with the odd fighter here and there. Same as 1918 started. But then you see more and more fighters creeping into his tally and then from May through August they're almost all fighters--of those 36 victories in that period, 5 were two-seaters and one was a balloon. For MvR, he was gone most of the time he was alive in 1918, and the weather was often terrible when he was back. When he began scoring again (between 12 March -- 21 April) it was in support of Operation Michael, which the British were actively fighting against. In that period he only shot down four two-seaters (five if you include the Biff he shot down 12 March) but 12 single-seaters. However, I've not dealt deeply into the "why" of this subject so I hesitate to state concrete reasons without considering/researching many different factors.

I've not researched it personally but according to Franks/Guest/Bailey in Bloody April...Black September, in April 1917 the RFC had 25 squadrons supporting the Arras offensive, with about 365 airplanes of which one-third were fighters. In the 6. Armee, the Germans had about 200 airplanes, with about half being fighters.

#4027086 - 10/25/14 01:52 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted By: JFM

I've not researched it personally but according to Franks/Guest/Bailey in Bloody April...Black September, in April 1917 the RFC had 25 squadrons supporting the Arras offensive, with about 365 airplanes of which one-third were fighters. In the 6. Armee, the Germans had about 200 airplanes, with about half being fighters.



Interesting fact to know. Any idea why Germany kept half their airforce as fighters? Seems to me you'd need more two seaters to gather all the intelligence about the enemy's position during the war.

Also, I've never read any books on WW1 observers or two-seater pilots to know what their experience was like during the war.

#4027110 - 10/25/14 02:29 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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OldHat, that was just one Armee along the sector of the front opposing the Arras offensive. Other sectors likely had different ratios. But we also should remember Germans didn't have as many airplanes as their enemyies so they moved the Jagdstaffeln to "the hot sectors" of the front, so the amount of fighters in a sector waxed and waned as the strategic situations warranted.

Two excellent books that cover two-seater pilots and obs are Peter Hart's Somme Success and Bloody April. Fantastic reads, full of personal anecdotes from the two-seater men who flew during these battles. Frankly, it's impossible not to love these two books if one has any interest in WW1 aviation.

#4027144 - 10/25/14 03:32 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Quote:
Two excellent books that cover two-seater pilots and obs are Peter Hart's Somme Success and Bloody April. Fantastic reads, full of personal anecdotes from the two-seater men who flew during these battles. Frankly, it's impossible not to love these two books if one has any interest in WW1 aviation.


+1. I have read both and they are truly fantastic books. Specially the first one.

And,..well, wouldn´t it be great if 2.0 fixed this ratios and was released this weekend so that we, poor flyers could enjoy it tonight? smile

#4027213 - 10/25/14 05:29 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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To take this a step further, and perhaps to be a bit simplistic, I would be curious what month the German victory claims moved decisively to single seaters from the two seaters if clear in the records and if they in fact ever did in a decisive fashion.

Already hard-pressed this must have been the deathknell for them in hindsight.

When your fighters are having to "waste" time shooting down enemy fighters then one supposes the two seaters are proceeding to and accomplishing their missions. And the two seaters are the power in "air power".

#4027256 - 10/25/14 07:01 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: OldHat]  
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[/quote]
Interesting fact to know. Any idea why Germany kept half their airforce as fighters? Seems to me you'd need more two seaters to gather all the intelligence about the enemy's position during the war.
[/quote]

I suspect this was not by choice since fighters are inherently defensive weapons generally speaking.
The RFC/RAF, and other Allies, forced this upon the outnumbered Germans.

#4027791 - 10/27/14 06:46 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted By: JFM

Two excellent books that cover two-seater pilots and obs are Peter Hart's Somme Success and Bloody April. Fantastic reads, full of personal anecdotes from the two-seater men who flew during these battles. Frankly, it's impossible not to love these two books if one has any interest in WW1 aviation.


Thanks for the advice, JFM. I will look those books up.

#4027792 - 10/27/14 06:53 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted By: DukeIronHand
[/quote]
Interesting fact to know. Any idea why Germany kept half their airforce as fighters? Seems to me you'd need more two seaters to gather all the intelligence about the enemy's position during the war.


I suspect this was not by choice since fighters are inherently defensive weapons generally speaking.
The RFC/RAF, and other Allies, forced this upon the outnumbered Germans. [/quote]

Ok. I didn't know that fighters were used mainly in defense roles.

#4027804 - 10/27/14 08:49 AM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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That's always a "can of worms" statement and a general one by me.
Of course single seaters did much organized ground attack from, I will say, Cambrai (November 1917) till the end of the war and ballon busting was always in fashion but the main missions of an Air Force, in that time period, are done by the two-seaters IMHO.
The main mission of a fighter is to deny airspace to the enemy multi-place aircraft trying to do their tactical and strategic jobs. That was why fighters were developed in the first place - to protect your forces from the depredations of two-seaters.

I have to wonder who was more effective for.the war effort; MvR or the unnamed and unknown RFC observer who flew art obs for a year calling in aucurate and effective artillery fire?
I think this holds true even in WW2. The modern multi-role jets, with much improved ordinance selection, make it much more confusing.

Seems a good time for the old quote:
"Fighter pilots make movies, bomber pilots make history."

EDIT: As further proof of this does it not seem that historically the assignment of single seaters to ground attack is a luxury only afforded to the side that is "winning" the air war? If their fighters were needed to protect the bombers they were not frittered away in ground attack - a useful but quite secondary thought after their main mission (denial of air space) had been accomplished. Almost to give them something to do in the war. I don't see too many times in history where the losing side of an air contest was assigning fighters to ground attack. A broad brush but I think pretty aucurate.



#4027824 - 10/27/14 12:14 PM Re: No Bombers..yet [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Another great book Oldhat is Tumult in the Clouds: The British Experience of the War in the Air, 1914-1918, by Nigel Steel and Peter Hart. This isn't a who-shot-who book but rather a very interesting explanation of the RFC/RNAS/RAF during each year of the war. This book clearly demonstrates how fighter vs fighter dogfighting was just a small, small part of the air war.

Duke, I think both MvR/fighter pilots and obs were equal in effectiveness--but as regards the ground war. One fighter plane shot down is like a grain of pollen on a drop of dew in a 1000 square mile field. But shoot down an obs plane bringing back photo recon information for army strategy and you've potentially saved hundreds if not thousands of lives over time. But on the other hand the same could be said for a fighter plane, too, because each one shot down was prevented from shooting down any more two-seaters.

I agree this was true in WW2. Every now and then it's popular for people to regard the story of Brown and Stigler, when Stigler wouldn't shoot down Brown's crippled B-17 and allowed them to fly back to England. The two later became friends and their story is a darling internet tree-hugging example of humanitarianism. Meanwhile, I always wonder how many people were bombed to smithereens afterwards as a result? Because, after all, since Brown was allowed to depart for England without being shot down he just continued his combat tour of bombing sorties. So, sure, Stigler spared ten lives, but we'll never know how many lives that cost--of the people below counting on Luftwaffe defense/protection.

I don't know. I guess in the end it's all part of the madness of warfare.

Last edited by JFM; 10/27/14 12:15 PM. Reason: changed "is" to "isn't"
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Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
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