I have a bunch of old/spare sticks with 4/8way hat switches and analog slews.
(Top Gun, Top Gun Platinum, Cheapo Saiteks, and an X52 which died randomly, but I still have the switches and stuff).

I’m still planning every thing, if the guy sells his stuff before I get back to him I'll hit ebay for the Sticks and throttle,

Sticks by themselves are only $20-30; the throttle is the expensive part. I just have to be careful, as the sticks have 4 different models and the 2 lower ones have dummy hats/castles.

I did see the top-o-line “Eagle” Version, which supports chained commands, but it was like $200, lol.

I was going to buy them this weekend, but some stuff came up and my budget pretty much evaporated.

My WinXP Box isn’t restored yet anyway to test them.


AFAIK, with the LEO/BU Boards, I can just run new wires directly from the switches original leads,
I’ve re-wired stuff before, So there’s likely a few shortcuts for switches that are directly wired to the SFS Controller board. (Cut the original leads about 2 inches from the switch, and splice to new line and send it to the BU controller board.

I’ve seen it done before, so it’s just a matter of which one is financially feasible.

Re-Wiring to a USB Board would make everything DirectInput Buttons.

I don’t really care to make it 100% F-15 Authentic, as I’ll be using it for DCS:F-18 mostly.

So, all the Hats, Castles, etc need to work, the KB/Gameport Toggle switch can be re-wired as a RECCI Button (I'll prolly use for PTT)
I may or may not look at transferring the 2-stage trigger switch from my Dead X52 Stick to the Suncom, Along with adding an internal button pressed by a Pinky Paddle, and making the thumb switch a 3 way some how.

it all depends how the 4/8-ways are wired (as individual buttons I can re-wire, or buttons on a chip), that I'll have to sort out.

Then re-wire the throttle to work, I don’t care if it 100% matches the A-10, F-15 or Hornet, as long as it works. 

Once I Get the Units, I'll make a list of things I need to get and do.

Once converted, it will also be easier to swap between Joysticks and Fanatec Steering wheel (USB Plug on the units).

IIRC:
SFS/Raptor 2axes, faux castle/thumb, LED
Hawk - 2 axes, faux castle/thumb
Talon - 2 axes, castle/hat/thumb push down.
Eagle - Audio Passthrough + Chorded Commands


But the reason I posted was to get a hold of an actual guide / step by step, with pictures, most of the one's I've found the images aren't online anymore.

I may end up springing for a Warthog HOTAS, and look for an extra handgrip, and building a F-18/F-15 Hand grip.

If you're up for writing a little software, check this out: http://forum.pjrc.com/threads/23681-Many-axis-joystick?p=45106#post45106

The hardware will set you back about $25 USD.

The Suncom grip never had the push detent for the castle or trim switches. I don't recall if the TDC on the throttle has a push detent, but it should.

The firmware for the Teensy listed in that forum post above can be programmed to appear to the host PC as a joystick, mouse, serial port AND a keyboard all at the same time. I've got a project that I'll get to at some point that involves writing a host application that will allow the board to be configured via serial port in order to set up keyboard macros on button presses, change response curves on the analogs, etc.

g.

I dont remember for what Suncom model someone did this (original) wiring map:

http://pt-br.tinypic.com/r/25ftvo2/8

I dont find usefull... too many common wires - count five or six.

So I opt for "Dremel" way, erasing these PCB trails:

http://pt-br.tinypic.com/r/33o61e0/8

And place wires direct from buttons to BU0836:

http://pt-br.tinypic.com/r/21crqzr/8

Since this Suncom model have a big red lamp instead a HAT,
I place a gamepad mini-stick in the place.

BTW - What you guys call "slew" is a HAT with axis instead switchs (I am not uset to Falcon and other "Jet's")?

Sokol1

The A/A Weapon Select Switch (Left Side of hand grip), Moves fore and Aft as well as Presses down IRL, the Suncom Sticks that have the button there only press down, while the 2 lower teir sticks have a Faux button

The TDC hat switch on the Suncom throttle doesn't click down either. It's just an 8-way digital hat switch instead of an analog force transducer with click-down button like on the real thing.

Military-grade force transducer slew controls are expensive pieces of equipment, though, so most consumer flight sim controls substitute analog microsticks. Just look at what Thrustmaster did with both the Cougar and Warthog throttles. I'm sure Suncom would've done the same had they not been held back by analog gameport interface limitations.


I don't call cursor slew controls or mini-sticks "hats" because in DirectInput terms, a POV hat switch is 8-way digital, not a pair of analog axes.

The term "slew control" is derived from their purpose in actual military aircraft-to slew one's sensors around-be that a TGP, a Maverick sensor, or a TDC on a radar scope. Since the real mil-spec force sensor controls are analog, I'd prefer to retain that wherever possible.

Also, as tempting as the Teensy approach may be, I'm still going to spend the extra for an Arduino Due or Atmel SAM4S XPLAINED Pro and flash Hempstick on it. It'll inevitably have more of a learning curve, but will provide me with greater flexibility in the long run, like the possibility of implementing DirectInput force-feedback support if anyone's willing to code it up.


Does it have to be an authentic military grip?

I've got this SFS stick lying around and doing absolutely nothing; I really just wanted the throttle, but they were sold as a set.

If you're up to extensively modding it with the proper switch functionality (dual-stage trigger, 5-way castle switch and 9-way trim hat switch, 3-way Auto Acquisition Switch, AP cancel/Nose Gear Steering Disconnect paddle on the SFS box), maybe you'd make better use of it.

It'll take more effort with the SFS stick due to the coolie hat being where the castle hat should be and a giant red LED being in place of the other hat, but maybe you won't have a problem with that if you're going for the F/A-18 look.

You'd also have to deal with the way it handles button chording on the existing buttons like a CH Flightstick Pro, meaning you can't press two buttons simultaneously and have both go through due to how they implemented that hat switch.

Like you, I'm mainly concerned with the dual throttles

Thanks for explain, and we can replace one these "HATS" with one "gamepad" mini-stick (2 axis, one press button) and have a more appropriated "slew" since a propper transductor are not easily available and probable these generic USB controllers like BU0836 dont handle them?

Which leads to the question, the games (Falcon...) are able to recongnize analog (axis) input for related functions, e.g. Maverick sensor or radar scope?

As example, a WiP CFS dont recognize trim tab adjust from analog axis.

If use a mini-stick are OK, their center spring dont bother, since are always centering the command?



I already dismantled sticks CH, Suncom, Saitek, Thrustmaster (and others "no name"), in all HAT are only four tactil micro swich placed around a pole.

What make the HAT work as 4 or 8 way is the controller firmware that are able to recognize, for example, N and W simultaneous press as NW instead N and W for 8 way HAT.

To allow three or more simultaneous button press sticks used "Matrix" with diodes or multiplexers chip.

Related, the two stage trigger is just two tactil micro switch placed in tandem.
The trigger press the first, placed over a spring base, hold and move to press the second.
At end, no "military secrets" inside stick's, all this is easy to DIY enthusiast make.

The only thing different I found inside sticks are a pressure device (transductor? - remember a IBM laptot mouse) in old Tm TQS, that worked a bit inaccurate in games.

BTW - This guy plans make a F-18 stick (and others) with 3D print and cast in metal, their last post promisse prototypes "in months".

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=104154
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2166064&postcount=261

Sokol1

Gamepad analog sticks actually use the same mechanisms you'd find in a lot of HOTAS controls. Seriously, the TM Cougar throttle, CH Pro Throttle and Logitech G940 stick all have a very similar component, if not the exact same.

I think they're all produced by ALPS or something; you can easily order replacements from shops like Mouser Electronics here in the States.

Pretty much every sim I know of supports analog axes for moving the slew cursor around, just like the real thing. Falcon BMS supports it. DCS World supports it. And if by some chance a sim doesn't support it, you've always got keyboard and mouse emulation. (IIRC, you might need mouse emulation for EECH sensor control.)

It's always RELATIVE control, however, so some form of centering is needed if you don't want your sensors drifting all over the place when you let go of the control and it's not electrically centered.


The hat switch implementation on the SFS stick is matrixed into the gameport button signals, that's the problem.

It's not the physical microswitch arrangement I'm talking about there, but rather a side effect of the limitations of old analog gameport interfaces (specifically, four axes, four buttons, and that's it) and Suncom's decision to work around it here.

Suncom set up the stick's controller board such that each hat switch direction is some combination of buttons 1, 2, 3 and 4. Remember that Suncom did not include keyboard emulation for the SFS Stick like they did the F-15 Raptor/Talon/Eagle, so they had to implement it solely using the gameport signals.

To ensure accidental inputs wouldn't be a problem, Suncom made it so that if you hold down the individual pushbuttons simultaneously, the higher-numbered ones take priority.

For example, if you hold both the trigger, button 1, and the missile launch button, button 2, only button 2 goes through, but if you also press the Nose Gear Maneuvering Range/uncage pinky button, button 4, then button 2 is electrically released and button 4 goes through. Press a hat switch direction and all of the individual button states get ignored over whatever combination of buttons that hat switch direction is associated with.

I don't know where that happens in the stick electronics, but I'm hoping it's in the stick base PCB and not the stick grip PCB. If it's on the stick grip PCB, your rewiring job just got a whole lot more complicated because you now have to bypass it.

Also, about that F-16 TQS slew control part, it's certainly no ALPS mini-stick, let alone a real mil-spec force transducer. Seriously, real force transducers are pretty bulky things and require a lot of internal space.


I've been keeping tabs on that on and off for a while, but I'll believe it when the product ships.

At any rate, my Warthog stick base needs a grip so I can sell it as a complete stick. It's had no use ever since I relegated its original grip to serve on my VKB Black Mamba base.

My buddy ended up sellin' to a Gamer that plays Old Jane's Games for $200 (more than I was willing to spend.)

The trim control on the F-15 grip is not 9-way, it's 5-way.

Trim is on the right, castle is on the left - F/A-18 is swapped for whatever reason.

The Hempstick looks pretty cool, but the hardware platform is kind of overkill.

A diode-isolated input matrix is stupid-easy. There's no reason to throw pins at the problem.

g.

I figured there's no reason a trim hat needs diagonals, but I also tend to relax just a bit on authenticity in favor of functionality, owing to the fact that I use my flight sim controls for a variety of games and sims. Sometimes those diagonal directions come in really handy.

That's why I won't be using entirely F-15E spec switches in place of the pushbuttons on my throttle grip. I'm hoping to add even more functionality beyond what was originally included, like a 3-way momentary switch in place of a two-way boat switch and a coolie hat with click-down.

You might think the Hempstick platform is overkill, but for me, there's no such thing as overkill.

In fact, I see a possibility with Hempstick that wasn't possible before: an open-source FORCE-FEEDBACK joystick controller board, if someone's willing to code in support for DirectInput FFB commands and the typical Arduino motor shields (I'm thinking Adafruit due to the four DC motor channels and 3.3V support). Pull that off, and we'll no longer need to cannibalize existing FFB sticks with their crippled controller boards!

In other words, I see it as a platform that can grow to meet my needs, whatever they may become, and hey, a typical Arduino Due or XPLAINED Pro is still far cheaper for me than a Leo Bodnar board!

Diode matrices aren't difficult to implement by any means, but I do appreciate the straightforwardness of direct wiring. If nothing else, the firmware's open-source, so there's nothing really stopping me from reconfiguring it for a diode matrix if I'm up to programming it that way.

Anyway, what I really need to know now is what it takes to amplify the load cells on this slew control in a manner that will function with any joystick controller board. Your friends' approach basically opted to integrate the amp with the USB joystick controller, as I understand.

You may know this already, but the Suncom grip circuit board has four micro switches in a "+" pattern for the castle & trim switches.

You're talking to a guy that's got a 2000lb+ chunk of F-15C in his workshop, so we're in the same boat with regards to "overkill" and what it looks like.

The problem with getting DirectInput FFB working is finding out the specification for it. I'm sure that if it was easy to come by, it would have been done by now. I've never seen a spec for the joystick end of the FFB stack, and without it, you won't be able to grok what's coming down the wire.

If you're using FSX/Prepar3D or X-Plane, I'd highly recommend looking into the FFB system designed by Ian over at http://www.builtforfun.co.uk. (You might also look at his vibration feedback system - I built one and it makes a typical bass shaker look like a four year old banging on a tin trashcan lid. )

I need to get off my butt and write up a spec for the Teensy 3.1 stick interface one day soon.

BTW, I was contacted recently by a guy trying to get the slew control to work with a Bodnar board. Once I gave him the pinout, he was able to get it to work directly and without any amplifier. Apparently the PIC that Leo is using has a great ADC on it. You might want to try it and see how it works with an Arduino. I haven't had the time myself.

g.

Well, if people have written gameport-to-USB adapters for the MS SideWinder Force-Feedback Pro, which uses a digital gameport interface (meaning your typical analog gameport-to-USB adapter is completely useless), then there has to be enough publicly available documentation to implement it.

http://code.google.com/p/adapt-ffb-joy/

My chief concern is not FSX (whose DirectInput FFB implementation is admittedly downright terrible)/Prepar3D or X-Plane, but Rise of Flight and DCS World specifically. They're the only combat flight sims I know of that actually make good use of FFB, up to and including correct implementation of trim forces.

I suppose I'll try the slew control with a different board later; my initial try was with a gutted Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB board I had lying around. I'm still trying to make up my mind on the controller board side of things, seeing as I do want to go Hempstick, but haven't made up my mind on which of the supported boards to use. The Atmel board might be easier to debug with, but I don't think I can slap the Adafruit motor shield on it like I can the Arduino Due.

Also speaking of the slew control pinout, looking at the PCB: 1 for reference voltage, 2 for X-axis, 3 for Y-axis, 4 for ground, right?

Yes. I fed it 5VDC.

g.

Well, thanks to a recent score, I might not even bother with modding this old Suncom SFS Throttle and instead leave the task to whoever's willing to buy it, considering I'm about to get something much better to mod into a USB throttle sometime during next week.

However, there's one thing I want to know that could make this new mod project easier: where can I source the actual mil-spec F-15 antenna elevation rotaries Mason Controls uses on the real grips? I'm banking on being able to remove this metal plate where the rotary normally would be and plopping the rotary right in its place.

Actually, make that two things: I need to know what the heck kind of connectors they're using on these things so I can get some female equivalents. I could just lop off the existing ones and rewire them to more common D-terminal connectors, but it just feels wrong to me somehow, like I want to keep this as mil-spec as possible.

i rewired my suncom f15 stick and throotle with ch product circuit boards and never looked back.. fun project

use the leo bodnar diode matrix map.. that helped me wiring the controller to CH Products boards, the both have a matrix

The elevation pot is just a 10K pot with a spring so it self-centers. There's nothing fancy about it.

g.

I wasn't expecting anything fancy about it electrically...actually, maybe what I'm asking for is an interior/slightly dismantled shot of the F-15 left throttle so I can compare it with something once it arrives, see if a surplus rotary would be a straightforward installation.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/KTAAAOSw-jhUGDvl/$_57.JPG

That's an A-10A throttle, not the same thing, I know. But you see that black metal plate I'm talking about on the outside of the left throttle? It's like Mason Controls used the exact same molds for the two aircraft throttles and just added different switches as needed.