#4010422 - 09/16/14 12:41 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,900
Gopher
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,900
Midlands
|
What PM said.
It's not just Steam that enables more straightforward patching - the internet in general, and its increasing speed, makes it a lot easier to push out updates and patches (e.g. Windows). Not that it's fun to buy a game and then spend the next five hours patching, but that's just the way it goes. As much as people #%&*$# about it, people still vote with their wallets.
What people expect to get hasn't changed over the years (i.e. it should work out the box, not need maintenance, reworking or patching, and is fully owned by the buyer), but what gets delivered has. The same actually goes on with many other things - cars, aircraft, and if you don't mind stretching analogies, the printed press (newspaper retractions :o).
|
|
#4010437 - 09/16/14 01:03 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
|
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
|
Remember when console games didn't need patches either?
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
|
|
#4010441 - 09/16/14 01:10 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
|
You guys are correct to a extent (but I remember the days before steam, yes I am that old) PC games still has the same issues I remember waiting for my gamer magazine that normally came with a disk To fix the issues back in the 56K days My point is we the customer just seem to accept it as the norm for software to be full of bugs If one buys a car or a new TV if there were multiple issues with the product you would bring it back and look for A Refund well I would anyway .Admittedly there's a big difference between hardware and software but the principle of customer expectation that they have bought a fully working product should be the same IMO One of my favourite sims has had the same Gameplay issues for years, some have been addressed over the years Other have just been ignored it seems from my prospective the need to add new content supersedes the need to Fix issues what they consider as low priority for them (but not for most users I have spoken to about it) And why do consoles games seem to have less issues.
Last edited by marko1231123; 09/16/14 03:03 PM.
|
|
#4010445 - 09/16/14 01:21 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,384
PanzerMeyer
Pro-Consul of Florida
|
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,384
Miami, FL USA
|
My point is we the customer just seem to accept it as the norm for software to be full of bugs
This is one of the major reasons why I hardly ever pre-order a game or buy it on release. I already accept the fact that it will need patching so I decide to wait. I already have plenty of current games that take up my time so I'm in no rush.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
|
|
#4010487 - 09/16/14 02:40 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla
Skate Zilla Graphics
|
Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
|
when you go from 300,000 lines of code to over 10 million, stuff's bound to get missed.
HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro, Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133, 2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ., 3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
|
|
#4010504 - 09/16/14 03:08 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,900
Gopher
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,900
Midlands
|
And why do consoles games seem to have less issues. Consoles have the handy affinity that they all use common hardware, or rather hardware that is interfaced the same way through the software. This means that your QA session post-development doesn't have to take into account that user x is using AMD hardware on W7, user Y is using nVidia hardware on W8. Additionally, stuff on consoles has to go through a certification process laid down by the console makers, which serves as an additional "catch" layer to trap bugs. I imagine that this applies to ports also, so this is a layer that a PC release may not necessarily be subject to.
|
|
#4010531 - 09/16/14 04:00 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake
Virtual Shiva Beast
|
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
|
Okay, here's the perspective of a development team manager with a tradition of remorseless, stone-hearted honesty. If you have sensitive feelings, skip reading this post.
Computer games are no different than other software - every non-trivial piece of software has bugs, period. This is because writing code requires skills for which the human brain is barely capable of doing, and can't do well for extended periods of time. You need to be very precise in formulating statements, especially be on the lookout for logical flaws, and counting is surprisingly hard/a constant source of errors as code always counts from zero, but we're mentally set up to count from one. Our brains are organic computers that are optimized for "least effort" data processing whereas writing code requires "zero defects" type of data processing. In short, our brains are very good at delivering approximate solutions for most situations in life, but really #%&*$# when it comes to writing code. This is the neuro-biological reason why code has bugs.
If you want to experience this biological deficit in our brains personally I recommend playing a fun board game called "Roborally". It's hilarious and entertaining and demonstrates how horribly wrong you can get at predicting just five steps in an algorithm. Your task is innocuous: Guide a robot through a maze with five action cards per round that you simply have to sort in a "non-destructive" order. Just five instructions. It's an eye-opener. And fun.
Then there's the economic side to it. One can gnash teeth and wail as much as one wants, the number of bugs corresponds to the amount of money that one is willing to pay for the development. First off, the number of bugs per 100 lines of code is a somewhat constant factor - a factor that can be reduced by adhering to certain coding standards, by using advanced code text editors, by using high level programming languages that catch typical errors, and by employing highly talented programmers that are exceptionally good at their work (for an exponentially growing salary to pay). So, as the first remedial effort you can reduce the bug rate, but it's a negative exponential function like radioactive decay where if you double your efforts you may cut the bug rate by a third or so, but you will never approach zero as long as the code is written by humans (see above).
So, no matter what, the code contains bugs and you need to search for them. Searching bugs and their removal is costly. There are the direct costs for testers and the hours that the programmers sink into bug hunts. There are the opportunity costs - stuff that the programmers COULD work on, if they weren't hunting bugs. Not every bug is obvious, or happens every time. Those are the easy ones. But there are also the intermittent bugs where you first need to spend time to figure out how to replicate them, and then you can start looking why they occur. Note that by fixing bugs you must write new code, which may introduce new bugs (see above). So, searching bugs costs time, and as people require regular payment, the associated bug removal costs are a direct function of time.
A third economic factor is how the development of software is being financed. Typically a game developer studio will strike a contract with a publisher who grants the developer a certain number of advance payments (so that the team's salaries can be paid out) for a fixed amount of time before the development time is declared over. There may be a number of reasons why you declare a development time to be over. Maybe you know that the game will sell X copies if you publish it on a certain date, and 20% or even 50% less on some other date. Or you know that there's a competing team with a similar title, and you want to beat their release date. Or it's tied to the release of a certain hardware (console Y will be released on a specific day, and your game has been chosen to be one of the line-up titles from day one). Or the publisher simply isn't willing to pay more for the development, so either the title gets shipped, or you're bust. Whatever the reason, nobody really wants to ship a software with bugs, but circumstances may be that it appears as the lesser evil.
A fourth economic factor are the manifest buying habits of computer gamers. There are only very few strong developer brands, Blizzard is one that comes to mind. You just know what to expect from them, and there are a few people who will buy a game simply because it's made by Blizzard. So, Blizzard has a vested interest in releasing software in a state that strengthens the brand. There is an economic incentive to invest more into game testing. Many games are franchises that are given to different development studios for each installment. So the first title may have been done by Studio A, but the sequel is made by Studio B as A has gone out of business or just because the Publisher feels like it because he owns the rights to the title anyway, and B promised to do the sequel for half the costs that A wanted. In this case the brand is the franchise title, and maybe the publisher's name. But the developers' reputation is not at stake. People simply don't track who worked on a variety of games and if they were all bug-ridden or not. In the end, the publishers take most of the blame. Also, computer game customers usually react sensitive to certain price points. No matter how much money was sunk in development and if the game comes with a gigabyte of sound recordings (or three), the customer doesn't want to pay more than $40.- or whatever his personal price point is. So, in order not to lose money, a game must sell a certain number of copies to break even. The more costly the development was the more copies you must sell (oh, and the profit margin on a game copy is NOT the retail price); raising prices is NOT an option. How many copies you can sell depends largely on the looks and the genre of the game, and on game features. How many bugs there are in the code people won't know until after they try it, and at that point the purchase has already been made. The only repercussion that the publisher must fear at this point is a backlash in the social media.
A lot could be written about how the market changes WRT mobile devices, AppStores and other forms of electronic publishing, and how subscription models change the equation. For the sake of brevity (the irony!) I'll stop here, at least for the moment.
|
|
#4010538 - 09/16/14 04:23 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Peally
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,700
Wisconsin, USA
|
And Ssnake drops 350 pounds of wall of text right onto the thread's runway, devastating worker productivity and site functionality for at least 24 hours until repairs are made. I did read it though, and nice points were made Skate also makes a valid point, modern software isn't exactly the same thing it was decades ago, it's slightly more complex.
Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds. Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
|
|
#4010539 - 09/16/14 04:27 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
|
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
|
I remember downloading multiple patches for Falcon 3 on a 2800 baud modem. The BBS wasn't local, it was long distance, so it literally cost every time. Or I could CALL (on the phone) the company and they'd mail me the patch on a disk...in like a week or two. It REALLY sucked. Half the time you needed to reinstall from scratch with a patch as well.
The current online auto-update process is quite frankly the Space Age compared to the Pony Express of that time.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
|
|
#4010546 - 09/16/14 04:39 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: Ssnake]
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
|
Crap now I am going to have to do some research, If I have any chance at balancing this discussion Thanks Ssnake. LoL
Where's all the bored intellectuals when you need them. LoL
Last edited by marko1231123; 09/16/14 04:40 PM.
|
|
#4010629 - 09/16/14 07:15 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
|
Good post from Snake
To iron out all bugs out of software is likely impossible - the company can bankrupt itself over 10 years trying and then release the software only for it to fall over due to the latest graphics driver or Windows update - or any other 12 billions things related to OS and other apps.
All the best with that business model
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
|
|
#4010726 - 09/17/14 12:00 AM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake
Virtual Shiva Beast
|
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
|
Professional programmers will point out that code can actually have zero defects, and that code can be validated to have zero defects. This is sometimes even being done, like for industrial plant processing software, or probably for interplanetary space probes etc.
But these are usually multi-billion dollar programs where 80% of the program costs are spent on testing and re-testing everything and to validate the construction and the mission beforehand as much as possible because - well, once that the space probe is on its way you can't fix it.
In my wall of text above I was writing about commercial software development. Here the principles are different because unlike with the space probe you actually CAN repair software by providing a simple patch for download. Many of the bugs in commercial software are not even terribly relevant/missed by most people most of the time; investing a lot more time and money into bug fixing isn't even guaranteed to improve the customers' perception of the level of quality - and you might have to pay four times as much per game with the number of shipped bugs reduced to a third. Is that really a good trade-off? For some games it probably is, but this is more about the total population of game titles.
There's the adage in software development that you want it cheap, fast, and with high quality. But you only get to pick two, or to compromise. So, that's what we always do, every day: We compromise. You may sometimes disagree with the choices that were made, of course. Also, I'm not saying that every choice is always the best one, let alone the best in the end-users' interest. Overall I think however that most games most of the time have a code quality level that is somewhat appropriate for the purpose.
|
|
#4010753 - 09/17/14 12:44 AM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Pooch
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Orlando, FL
|
Since so many posts have to do with buggy games, I suggest that as you log into SimHQ you will first see Snake's post. Above it will be the words, "Read Before Entering."
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace." Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
|
|
#4010851 - 09/17/14 08:53 AM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
|
Don't you just hate it when a logical mind spoils a perfectly good rant. I seriously think Ssnakes part Vulcan. LoL
But seriously the simple fact remains on the whole PC Games are to buggy I have seen games released that are so buggy there nearly impossible to play RTW 2 comes to mind yes they fixed it but not before pissing off the thousands that bought it on its release And giving the title a bad rep.
Last edited by marko1231123; 09/17/14 01:23 PM.
|
|
#4010894 - 09/17/14 12:36 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
|
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
|
The solution is obvious--games should be restricted to 500MB in size, what can fit on a single CDROM. Then there is plenty of time for testing code and all that.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
|
|
#4010934 - 09/17/14 02:01 PM
Re: PC Games so full of bugs (Why)
[Re: marko1231123]
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
|
Don't you just hate it when a logical mind spoils a perfectly good rant. I seriously think Ssnakes part Vulcan. LoL Nope. Nor is he Vulcan, he works in the software industry, and those of us who work in it too know what he's saying first hand. Occasionally someone will pop up ranting about game testing etc while not realizing they're working in the wrong part of the software industry, and their well intended and educated commentary does not apply. But seriously the simple fact remains on the whole PC Games are to buggy The simple fact is that when you figure out how to make games 'not too buggy' in a non trivial manner, you'll get very rich very quickly. Until then, you are merely exercising your gums :-)
-- 44th VFW
|
|
|
|