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#4008661 - 09/12/14 09:21 AM Hawker VC Republished  
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Dezh Offline
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This may be old news but I've not seen it broadcast here so:

Hawker VC - The First RFC Ace: The Life of Major Lanoe Hawker VC DSO 1890 - 1916

The biography of Lanoe G. Hawker written by his brother Tyrrel M. Hawker has been republished by Pen & Sword and is available on Amazon (UK, US and Germany).

Well worth a read.


Oh that I was back in the dear old PBI.
With no more Triplanes on me tail, nor tracer tracing by.
And no more flames and clickerty-clack and no more blooming sky,
And only a couple of feet to fall whenever I want to die.

No. 56 Squadron Song
#4009159 - 09/13/14 07:55 AM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Thanks for the heads up, I for one will be looking into this!


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#4009181 - 09/13/14 10:05 AM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Oh, very good! I've read this book and it is excellent. I don't have a copy yet in my own library as every time I've run across a 1965 first edition it's been exorbitantly overpriced. May have to consider this reprint. Thanks for the heads-up Dej.

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Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
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#4009724 - 09/14/14 05:05 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Great book; I have both. Tyrrel's take on the last dogfight features common errors of the day--and some that are still common--and his recounting of what Lanoe did in the cockpit is, frankly, pure fantasy. However, the book is a fine life overview of a man who should be known for much more than being Richthofen's 11th.

#4010387 - 09/16/14 09:11 AM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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That sounds interesting JFM. I won't pester you to provide more detail about those errors and fantasies, I'll just have to find a copy of the book and read it myself.

As part of my German study, I read Richtofen's account of the battle against Hawker in Der Rote Kampfflieger a few days ago. Harrowing stuff.

Last edited by Falcon988; 09/16/14 09:11 AM.

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#4010466 - 09/16/14 02:08 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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I haven't read the book, but I presume that JFM means nobody can really know what Hawker did in his cockpit during the final fight, because he didn't live to tell the tale. A historian should always stick to the known facts and not venture too deeply into speculative territory. smile


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#4010617 - 09/16/14 06:56 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Tyrrel Hawker was an artilleryman and I'm sure would not have deemed himself to be an historian so can probably be forgiven for the common errors of the time.

As to the speculation on what Lanoe Hawker was doing in the cockpit, it can only be that - speculation - unless you allow for some mental bond between brothers who had been so close all their lives.


Oh that I was back in the dear old PBI.
With no more Triplanes on me tail, nor tracer tracing by.
And no more flames and clickerty-clack and no more blooming sky,
And only a couple of feet to fall whenever I want to die.

No. 56 Squadron Song
#4010931 - 09/17/14 01:53 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Respectfully, I do not allow for such "mental bond." Nobody--NObody--except Lanoe knew what he did in the cockpit, when he did it, and the state of his engine and its supposed "trouble." All that is tail-wagging-the-dog at best because, frankly, some people feel "the best man lost" and don't like it. The simple truth is, Lanoe had target fixation chasing two-seaters, didn't see Jasta 2 diving on him, was attacked by one-of-it-not-the-most tenancious air fighter of the German air force, fought defensively from there on, and was shot down and killed. These are undebatable facts established and corroborated by matching German and British combat records and eyewitness accounts.

Lanoe was a great pilot, no doubt, but was he the better than Richthofen on 23 November 1916? He was good enough to avoid being shot down for eight minutes or so but never gained an advantage on MvR. (BTW, if Hawker's engine was running so "poorly" throughout the fight, how did he pull off those low-altitude aerobatics?) But Lanoe was a product of the earlier war. Most of his victories were two-seaters (usually MvR is judged negatively for shooting down two-seaters but MANY aces on both sides have a majority of their tallies comprised of two-seaters) and three of them were shot down by his observer while Hawker flew an FE2b. His last victory was 7 September 1915, almost 15 months prior to meeting MvR. He never shot down an airplane while flying a DH2. Furthermore, as CO of No.24, his flying hours were much less than the other pilots. From No. 24 Sqn record books I tallied Hawker had flown a total of 5.6 hours since 1 October and NO hours since 20 October. Conversely, MvR had flown continually from mid-September and had shot down 10 planes. Claims of MvR being a "poor" pilot are greatly exaggerated. Otherwise, we have to believe one of the best stick and rudder talents of the RFC, rusty though he was combat flying, was unable to evade such a "poor" pilot. Hawker's inability to do so has been the headwaters of the "poor running engine" supposition to "explain" this, rather than concede he had met his match with MvR.

FYI, in his book Tyrell got Lanoe's birthday wrong. He was born 30 December 1890, not the 31st. I know this because I have a certified copy of Lanoe's birth registration that I obtained from Andover (Lanoe was born in Longparish but the General Register Office is in Andover). The entry is handwritten and clearly states "thirtieth." It was recorded 4 (written "fourth") February 1891 by his father, i.e., in person. By the mid-sixties, it had been nearly 50 years since Lanoe had celebrated a birthday, so being a day off can be forgiven. But I do not agree that after nearly 50 years Tyrell could accurately recall events about which he never knew in the first place.

#4010938 - 09/17/14 02:18 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Jim, I agree that Lanoe was quite simply beaten by a better pilot. Very little stick time for that long in a combat setting and you will definitely lose some of your edge so perhaps his situational awareness would have been better had he been flying more before meeting up with MvR, but who knows. Two guns to one didn't help, but then Lanoe never got a shot on MvR if I recall correctly so his single gun didn't come into the equation. And it wasn't like you couldn't down an Alb D.II while flying the DH.2 as the records show. No, I think it was just Lanoe not paying full attention and having a better pilot drop down on him and chase him to his demise. Bad luck.

.


[Linked Image]

Three RFC Brass Hats were strolling down a street in London. Two walked into a bar, the third one ducked.
_________________________________________________________________________

Former Cold War Warrior, USAF Security Service 1974-1978, E-4, Morse Systems Intercept, England, Europe, and points above.
"pippy-pahpah-pippy pah-pip-pah"

#4010940 - 09/17/14 02:21 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted By: JFM
Most of his victories were two-seaters (usually MvR is judged negatively for shooting down two-seaters but MANY aces on both sides have a majority of their tallies comprised of two-seaters)


I think this is mostly based on the lack of understanding many people unfortunately have regarding the nature of the Great War in the air. After all, shooting down enemy two-seaters, and protecting friendly ones, was the main reason why the fighters existed in the first place!

If a fighter pilot was an expert at shooting down recon and arty co-operation aircraft, it simply meant that he was doing exactly what was expected of him, and not that he lacked the skill to face enemy fighters in combat. Besides, it wasn't always so easy to bring down a two-seater. They could and did fight back. MvR himself could have died already in the summer of 1917 when he was wounded by that bullet shot by the Fee observer.


"Upon my word I've had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers."

James McCudden, Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps
#4010971 - 09/17/14 03:54 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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AFAIK MvR (and others, Mccudden etc. IIRC) stated that shooting down twoseaters is a more difficult task than shooting down scouts. And so is my experience in WOFF too. Especially when some of them holding formation, covering each other, or making manouvres to get a better shot. If you are able to surprise them, any kills are easier, no matter if single or twoseaters. And four eyes usually see more than two. But once in a fight, as long as a scout does not outperform you, you are rather save. The "easier" thing with attacking twoseaters is that they are, like in wildlife, rather in escape than attack mode. So one can decide when to attack and when to stop attacking, while when fighting with scouts, there are two parties who have to stop the fight.

#4011001 - 09/17/14 05:06 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Creaghorn]  
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Originally Posted By: Creaghorn
AFAIK MvR (and others, Mccudden etc. IIRC) stated that shooting down twoseaters is a more difficult task than shooting down scouts. And so is my experience in WOFF too. Especially when some of them holding formation, covering each other, or making manouvres to get a better shot. If you are able to surprise them, any kills are easier, no matter if single or twoseaters. And four eyes usually see more than two. But once in a fight, as long as a scout does not outperform you, you are rather save. The "easier" thing with attacking twoseaters is that they are, like in wildlife, rather in escape than attack mode. So one can decide when to attack and when to stop attacking, while when fighting with scouts, there are two parties who have to stop the fight.


I have been in a fight with a Roland that would not give up and continued to attack and chase me when I wanted to call it quits, so nothing is cast in concrete with WOFF! Generally speaking though, you are correct Sir.


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#4011003 - 09/17/14 05:10 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: JFM]  
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Originally Posted By: JFM
Respectfully, I do not allow for such "mental bond."...


Nor do I, I wasn't suggesting it seriously.

Hawker was the architect of his own demise, without a doubt.

Target fixation, probably; loss of combat edge, almost certainly; ill-discipline too, since he wasn't leading the patrol and shouldn't have gone tearing after the two-seaters anyway, once Andrews started turning away.

I don't subscribe to the 'poor running engine' idea either. I'm inclined to think that Hawker knew the DH2's habits well enough to have RTB'd if there were any hint of engine trouble, whether he were rusty or not. Besides, is there other evidence that there was anything wrong with the engine aside from Tyrrel's statement? Unless Von Schoenburg privately communicated to Tyrrel something to that effect, but what kind of judge would a german Grenadier Major be of a DH2's aircraft's engine sound?

From a factual point of view, the whole book is muddied by time and hero-worship, but still worth reading.


Oh that I was back in the dear old PBI.
With no more Triplanes on me tail, nor tracer tracing by.
And no more flames and clickerty-clack and no more blooming sky,
And only a couple of feet to fall whenever I want to die.

No. 56 Squadron Song
#4012680 - 09/21/14 07:57 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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I agree, Dezh. I think the best part of the book is it brings Hawker to life, so much so that the reader is left with more of an impression of Hawker than just being "Vic. #11." Tyrell had only speculation and hearsay to recall his brother's last fight but much of the book is based on personal experience and letters, so I agree the book is very much worth reading.

Regarding the DH2 engines, the No.24 Squadron record books are RIFE with reports of engine problems. I'll opine engines were more of a worry to No. 24 Squadron than even the Germans. I'm being serious, not flippant. 5964 had its share of engine problems, too (and was even flown into high tension wires two weeks before its loss), so engine problems weren't unheard of for that plane. But neither was it unusual for it NOT to have engine problems. For instance, neither Saundby nor Andrews reported any engine problems that sortie (except for the problems the German bullets caused Andrews' engine!). Crutch (the fourth pilot on that sortie--you don't read much about him flying with Hawker/Saundby/Andrews--except in one book... wink ) of course had engine problems, which caused him to drop out of the sortie and make a precautionary landing with two cylinders out. The other three continued on without him, with Hawker thence flying into destiny. How his engine ran will never be known, but the descriptions of his actions suggest he was having little to no trouble.

But, claims of a poor running engine are moot, anyway. Even with a perfectly running engine, a jinking old DH2 could not outrun a pursuing new Albatros D.II.

(Forgive my late response here. I've been distracted by confronting/fixing serious and unbearable computer problems.)

#4012858 - 09/22/14 10:50 AM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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I thought all pilots are equals because at the end of the day they are all humans and they all make mistakes.

Yes we can talk about abilities but really it is nothing talk. A score does not tell you you're a better pilot. Because some days you can be good, and some days you can be bad, you never find a level. I can tell you now not all good days was credited.

MvR found himself making the similiar mistakes to Lanoe, Because of a combination of similar situations regarding mental and physical state it cost him his life too.

Pilot's are judged by score rather than mistakes because you can track a pilots score, only the fatal mistake is counted.

MvR had the experience, routine and aircraft that gave him a edge at the time. combine that with the situation. Hawker had little option than to take the run defensive strategy and it might have worked had his luck not ran out. He found himself in a bad situation and he dealt with it the best he could far better than most and his luck ran out.

How many mistakes did MvR make before his luck ran out ? These guys gave their lives trying to do their best in a scenario that quiet frankly should never have happened. If you want to talk about who was the best like it was a game of football then shame on you.


Excuse my grammar please. I struggle writing English

Patience is not a virtue, Its a waste of time.

Wings Over Flanders Fields Pics/Videos on my Facebook
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#4013006 - 09/22/14 03:52 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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"Luck" is an intangible human invention used for convenience to "explain" past tense events. It is not something one attains and possesses, like skill. So I respectfully discount "luck" has anything at all to do with, well, anything. Furthermore, "luck" is just a matter of perspective. For instance, regarding MvR's wounding 6 July 1917, many say "he was lucky he wasn't killed." If I believed in luck, I would maintain he was unlucky he was shot in the first place. Or, as was everyone, they were all unlucky to be at war. Views on luck haven't tangible relevance, however. MvR was just shot.

I agree with you, Freiherr_Wulff. Pilots had (have) good and bad days. MvR had many days with mistakes. He's written about a lot of them. His brother Lothar wrote about how MvR fought several FE2s and barely escaped, likely because of Lothar's eventual intervention. The day he died, however, has been overblown as regards his mental and physical status. My extensive research reveals MvR was fine, jovial, accessible, and in top form as a fighter pilot in April 1918--certainly the best he'd been in a year. Too much credit has been given to his undated "Thoughts in a Dugout" as having been written shortly before his death, but my research reveals that document more likely dovetails with his condition in August, 1917, shortly after his wounding. Everything he writes about matches that time frame, while none of it matches the events of April 1918.

What got MvR killed wasn't bad decision making, either. Check that--it WAS bad decision making, but not in the way most people believe. I.e., that he decided to chase an enemy over the lines. He did do that, yes, but he was only two miles or so across. In an airplane, two miles is nothing. And he'd chased many, many airplanes across the lines before--21 April 1918 was NOT the first time he'd done that. But doing so at less than 50 feet? That's what really sealed his fate because it brought him into range of the estimated hundreds of rifles and machine guns. Had he been at 10,000 feet over the lines, none of that would have touched him. Had he been at 50 feet while over or just inside his lines, too, he still would have been subject to intense ground fire--look at Mick Mannock. So going down to low altitude was a risk--but he'd even done THAT many times before! Ernst Udet wrote about how MvR would lead them down to strafe troops after a sortie, making several passes. MvR had done it in Russia years before, too, while flying Albatros CIIIs. People try to assign some explanation for why MvR did what he did 21 April 1918, as if he couldn't have been killed just like anybody else. The thing is, 21 April he did the same things he had done many times before--chasing an adversary over the lines while at low altitude. Only this time he took a bullet through the body and died.

What happened in WW1 happened. The way I research those events does not/will not change those events. It only shines new light on them and corrects long-standing errors, myths, and misconceptions. I feel and accept no shame for that.

#4013030 - 09/22/14 04:54 PM Re: Hawker VC Republished [Re: Dezh]  
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Luck is chance. when the chance happens is it questionable or not?

That depends whether it is good chance or bad chance.

If skill determines a target is 1 in a 100 chance and you hit it with your first shot is that skill ? Nope because we already determine skill at 1 in 100 the fact you hit it first shot is Luck. The better side of 50 is Luck the worse side of 50 is unlucky. Good chance Bad Chance

People see luck and think crazy things. But when you consider it is chance and chance is within the realms of probability then guess I should have said their chance was up, but then you would wonder what the hell I was on about.

Skill comes from knowledge and practice, knowledge alone is not enough. I know how to build a house but I have never built one in my life, chances are it would not be the greatest thing in the world if I do build one.
I have seen engineers come out of uni with awesome grades enter a casting shop for the first time. They can tell me a few things I do not know about the machines in there, but when it came to operating them inexperience prevails.
But then you can get the ones that are good straight away and then you see the inexperience later. That is chance

What happened boils down to chance and that can be deemed lucky or unlucky. and chance cannot be determine because we just do not know the realms of it. But shame is trying to determine who was the better pilot out of men who gave their lives for what they thought was duty. Neither was better they both sacrificed the same thing. I am not questioning anyone research I am saying we should not be judging who was better than who but accepting them for who they were and what they did because at the end of the day who is the benchmark? no one.


Excuse my grammar please. I struggle writing English

Patience is not a virtue, Its a waste of time.

Wings Over Flanders Fields Pics/Videos on my Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/VonWulf


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